You are the third person on this thread to respond that the right foot should be, or at least can be, ON the line. This feedback is in addition to what I found (and posted) in terms of on-line instructional pieces. This is liberating. Having read Mark Wilson’s book (and then seeing the video of his clinic), I was living in a world in which I thought it was a major error to be on the line with the right foot. In terms of ease vs. awkwardness, I think the 4” to 6” that we are talking about here makes a BIG difference.
Mark Wilson Pool Clinc on YouTube
- Thread starter KenRobbins
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You are the third person on this thread to respond that the right foot should be, or at least can be, ON the line. This feedback is in addition to what I found (and posted) in terms of on-line instructional pieces. This is liberating. Having read Mark Wilson’s book (and then seeing the video of his clinic), I was living in a world in which I thought it was a major error to be on the line with the right foot. In terms of ease vs. awkwardness, I think the 4” to 6” that we are talking about here makes a BIG difference.
Certainly you can play that way but what you are stating in my opinion is just not true. A slower or slow transition is better but that does not in any way mean an active pause is needed. If that were true, then you would see pronounced pauses in profession golfers putting strokes and you do not. It is about rhythm and smoothness of transition not a proscription of pause.
Stance for Different Body Types
Dave, your book has been another great asset to me. I can't wait to watch your video, but can I offer a suggestion? Ask one or two people who aren't the same "shape" as you to help with the demonstration.
As someone who isn't tall, it was hard to imagine emulating the "both knees bent" stance shown in your book and previous video.
Dave, your book has been another great asset to me. I can't wait to watch your video, but can I offer a suggestion? Ask one or two people who aren't the same "shape" as you to help with the demonstration.
As someone who isn't tall, it was hard to imagine emulating the "both knees bent" stance shown in your book and previous video.
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You shouldn't really try to emulate "my stance" or some "textbook stance" that somebody else recommends. You should find your own "personal best" stance. The video I linked earlier might help with this:
NV J.21 – How to Find the Perfect Pool/Snooker/Billiards Stance
Good luck,
Dave
Dr. Dave - It was also liberating to watch this video of yours. For two reasons.
First, my stance is, or is closest to, the classic pool stance that you demonstrate. But unlike Mark Wilson, on whose written instruction I had built my stance, you advise that the right foot should be on the line, not to the left of it.
Second, you opened my mind to knee bend. I had not given a moment’s thought to this, but the neck pain that I’ve been experiencing for months now, and that is directly related to playing pool, might well be alleviated by modifying my stance via knee bend. I’ve been loathe to rethink or change any fundamentals that I’ve concluded are reasonably sound (simply because I don’t want to persist in questioning whether there is a flaw in what I’m doing, or a better way to do what I’m doing; I’d rather move on to other areas of game development) - but making a change for health reasons, so that I can continue to play and enjoy it, would be worth it.
So - Thank you.
Seth
Seth,
There are several pros that step on the line more times than not...just like there are lots of pros that have a very short pause at the back of stroke.
The average pro may pause ~1+ but there are way more pros that are closer to 1 flat or less.
Right Foot on the Shot Line
To be fair, Mark Wilson also recommends having the toes of the right foot on the shot line.
The photos in the book do show Mark’s toes about half an inch to the left of the painters tape on the shot line. I think the photo is just a case of “close enough”; what’s important is not crossing the line. I double-checked and Mark says this on page 17: “You begin assuming your stance by placing the toes of your right foot up to the edge of the shot line.”
I think Mark’s key takeaway is that “straddling” the shot line brings the cue too close to your body, thus reducing the clearance needed for a fluid stroke. Lack of Clearance is the problem and the foot crossing over the line is more of a symptom to watch out for. I know that I shot like that (closed-in and restricted) for years.
There’s a photo (3-1B) thats shows an improper stance too far to the left where the cue just hangs out in space away from the body.
I like a technique that the German pros use for finding their ideal “personal alignment.” Thorsten Hohmann shows it to Mike Massey in this video, but I think it originated with Ralph Eckert.
Learning the Lining Up
Ralph Eckert
To be fair, Mark Wilson also recommends having the toes of the right foot on the shot line.
The photos in the book do show Mark’s toes about half an inch to the left of the painters tape on the shot line. I think the photo is just a case of “close enough”; what’s important is not crossing the line. I double-checked and Mark says this on page 17: “You begin assuming your stance by placing the toes of your right foot up to the edge of the shot line.”
I think Mark’s key takeaway is that “straddling” the shot line brings the cue too close to your body, thus reducing the clearance needed for a fluid stroke. Lack of Clearance is the problem and the foot crossing over the line is more of a symptom to watch out for. I know that I shot like that (closed-in and restricted) for years.
There’s a photo (3-1B) thats shows an improper stance too far to the left where the cue just hangs out in space away from the body.
I like a technique that the German pros use for finding their ideal “personal alignment.” Thorsten Hohmann shows it to Mike Massey in this video, but I think it originated with Ralph Eckert.
Learning the Lining Up
Ralph Eckert
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Interesting advice from Mr. Eckert. Thanks for posting.
The manner that Eckert shows is the same that Bert Kinister showed on one his fundamental videos many years ago. The biggest difference is that after he has made his body adjustment that aligns the cue, wrist, elbow and shoulder he then steps back with his right foot rather than moving into the shot like Eckert.
That's true but, there are many variables that can and do matter more to some than others.
For example, when a person holds the cue to their side while letting it swing into place. Well, if they don't relax their shoulders enough it will cause them to get to close or go across the line. If their shoulders are too relaxed, well, it can cause the opposite.
Then again, anyone that ever done anything at advanced levels knows that you have to do two things:
Build a foundation
Then.....build your own house.
Sure, foundations are mostly the same, but what's on top of the foundation is unique to eqch individual.
Anyone that doesn't get at least that much, well....they will be limited very quickly.
Jeff
A Good Closing Thought
“Build your own house.”
That’s a good thing to remember when it comes to instruction whether in person or through books and video. Ultimately you have to settle on a method that works for you. “One size doesn’t fit all,” as I said earlier.
I think the really good instructors get this. It’s the bad instructors who (in my opinion) can do more harm than good by expecting students to slavishly follow their “one true way.” Allowances need to be made for how people differ.
The value in Mark Wilson’s book is that he explains the “why” of his method. If you read closely, he reveals his “diagnostic method” so that you can identify the real problem (lack of clearance) by the symptom (right foot over the line). You don’t have to become a Mark Wilson clone.
“Build your own house.”
That’s a good thing to remember when it comes to instruction whether in person or through books and video. Ultimately you have to settle on a method that works for you. “One size doesn’t fit all,” as I said earlier.
I think the really good instructors get this. It’s the bad instructors who (in my opinion) can do more harm than good by expecting students to slavishly follow their “one true way.” Allowances need to be made for how people differ.
The value in Mark Wilson’s book is that he explains the “why” of his method. If you read closely, he reveals his “diagnostic method” so that you can identify the real problem (lack of clearance) by the symptom (right foot over the line). You don’t have to become a Mark Wilson clone.
I agree 1000%.
I'm of the belief that nobody can make you good or great. All they can do is point you in a direction that allows you to improve.
I believe Mark is probably the most sought after pool coach in the US.
He like any good coach understands that there are exceptions to every rule. He also knows that most of the people that think they are an exception.....well, they're probably not and just don't like the hard work.
Only after he meets with you and gets to know your games will he be able to make that decision. Since he cant meet and know everyone's game, he has no choice but to assume.....which is IMO, the correct thing to do.
Jeff
When I setup the shot line tape, I put the tape on the floor approximately, then I place the cue on the table with the tip at the base of the cue ball and the cue along the shot line, and I compare to the tape. Then I make adjustments to the tape position. I do that a few times until the tape is perfectly aligned (by my sight!) under the cue.
If you are also asking about the second parallel piece of tape for the left foot...
Mark recommends that the left foot be placed forward of the right foot and to the left of the shot line--with the feet "at least a shoulder width apart". The left foot is parallel to the shot line, while the right foot is perpendicular to the shot line. He also recommends that the left heel be further left than the back of the right heel. So if you started with your heels touching so that they formed a right angle, with your right toes up to the edge of the shot line tape, you could slide your left foot forward, say 10 inches, then you could slide your left foot to the left, say 6 inches.
He also recommends that your weight be distributed approximately 50-50 ("no more than 60% of your weight on one foot"), and the right leg should be locked straight (English style) or both legs locked straight (American style). He says to choose English v. American based on what you prefer after trying both.
I didn't get that impression from the book. He seems pretty adamant about his recommended stance--for all body types. There is some leeway in how wide the recommended placement of the left foot is: "at least shoulder width apart". However, he repeatedly says that comfort is not something that you will initially experience when practicing his stance. He claims that after you practice any stance for long enough, it will feel comfortable.
His main point throughout the initial chapters, which cover the fundamentals, is that you can use other stances, grips, etc. and still become a great player--it's just that it will take you much longer than if you had adopted his orthodox recommendations.
Same here--for a few days.
I just changed my grip to his recommended grip. His recommended grip is extremely loose with the thumb only preventing the cue from falling out of the curled fingers. The thumb points down, and there is lots of space between the top of the cue and the palm.
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Defiantly (typo).
Put some rods, plates, screws, spacers and a fusion in a couple places in his spine and he will sing a different tune.....VERY quickly and VERY loudly.
Mark is a great teacher, but unless he's not planning on coaching people with injuries, he will HAVE TO rethink that part or some of us will have to stop playing all together.
BTW: there are players that deliver the cue very well while having their foot well over the shot line.
The small group of us who worked with the Kinister/Eckhert alignment method never experienced the shoulder problems that you mentioned. It seemed very simple and consistent for all of us. Body balance needed adjustment.
Your grip description matches that of Hal Mix who at one time worked with Nick Varner. He claimed that Billy Incardonna had the best example of a proper grip, especially with downward pointing thumb.
Not a bad thing.
Stating that pros generally have slower backswings compared to the average amateur player is one thing, but I'm not sure where Mark got that the average pro is between 1.2 to 1.8 seconds.
I just looked at random youtube videos of Alex, Little Ko, Dennis O, Efren, SVB, and Kaci, and they all had backswings 1.0s and below, averaging around 0.7-0.8s.
In his book, he goes over orthodox vs unorthodox.
You can find exceptions to anything. I believe the main thing is repeatability and getting everything needed on the shot line consistently. The edge of your toe would be easier to repeat vs some random place on your foot.
He does state that most top players do some unorthodox things but they have put in thousands upon thousands of hours to be able to do the same thing every time. Your average player would greatly benefit from doing things as close to orthodox as possible from the beginning.