Carbon graphite anyone play with one ?

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
You said the term "Carbon Graphite" is just a bit of marketing nonsense. If you've been working in the industry for 36 years, you should know that it's not.

You said:

"There is no such thing as non-carbon graphite so calling it carbon graphite is like calling ice "water "

And that's a bit backwards. Carbon Graphite means that it's a carbon fiber that has graphite as an additional reinforcement. There are non-graphite (non-additional) carbon composites. When you add graphite, the material properties of the carbon composite changes. In my opinion, this is a huge understanding when selecting materials.

I know what I know. I do not have it backwards.

A composite is simply a mix of different materials. What people call a "fiberglass" fender (like on the Corvette) is plastic (mostly polyester) reinforced with chopped fiberglass. Engineers would call it fiberglass reinforced thermoset composite.

What people call a "carbon fiber" shaft is a composite shaft, resin reinforced with carbon fiber. Nobody would pay $500 if they called it reinforced plastic, even though that's basically what it is.

Carbon is an element. It occurs naturally in several different forms and can also be processed into several other forms. Graphite IS Carbon. Diamonds ARE carbon. Carbon Fiber IS Carbon that has been processed in a specific way. That is why I suggested that it is marketing nonsense. Calling something a mix of Carbon and Graphite is calling it "Carbon and Carbon". There is zero carbon fiber in an Eliminator shaft. If it did have any they would proudly call it "carbon fiber"...or probably "graphite carbon fiber".

The cue in question in this thread is called "carbon graphite". Adding the word carbon is unnecessary and only added to conjure up the idea of carbon fiber in a buyer's mind. It has zero carbon fiber.
 
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Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
There is zero carbon fiber in an Eliminator shaft. If it did they would proudly call it "carbon fiber"...or probably "graphite carbon fiber".

The cue in question in this thread is called "carbon graphite".
We clearly have a disconnect.
 

Gman***

Member
It's really the worst of both worlds, the design is really for looks and to "protect" the wood, what it really does for the player is to take away the positive things of both materials. You don't have the feel or touch of the hit that wood has or the flexibility and deflection some players want and you don't have the performance offered by the current carbon fiber shafts.

Like stuffing a lobster with a cheesecake. It seems like a win/win, but really not so much.

I don't even remember how those shafts performed past the stiff and jarring hit feel of the cues. Asking about it here is like when you date a 5 but you never seen anyone past a 6, then walk into a room filled with world class women, you realize things are not as great as they seem LOL

If you are in MA or around N.E. I would not mind trying out the cue, have not touched one of those in a while and you can compare it to others.
You know ... now that I posted that question about the carbon graphite and got the responses , I went back to the table and had my own little review and the carbon graphite is the 5 and my Mike Segal maple custom cue is the 6 !
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You know ... now that I posted that question about the carbon graphite and got the responses , I went back to the table and had my own little review and the carbon graphite is the 5 and my Mike Segal maple custom cue is the 6 !
I'd think that a Sigel custom would be more than a few notches above that Elim. thing.
 

Gman***

Member
I know what I know. I do not have it backwards.

A composite is simply a mix of different materials. What people call a "fiberglass" fender (like on the Corvette) is plastic (mostly polyester) reinforced with chopped fiberglass. Engineers would call it fiberglass reinforced thermoset composite.

What people call a "carbon fiber" shaft is a composite shaft, resin reinforced with carbon fiber. Nobody would pay $500 if they called it reinforced plastic, even though that's basically what it is.

Carbon is an element. It occurs naturally in several different forms and can also be processed into several other forms. Graphite IS Carbon. Diamonds ARE carbon. Carbon Fiber IS Carbon that has been processed in a specific way. That is why I suggested that it is marketing nonsense. Calling something a mix of Carbon and Graphite is calling it "Carbon and Carbon". There is zero carbon fiber in an Eliminator shaft. If it did have any they would proudly call it "carbon fiber"...or probably "graphite carbon fiber".

The cue in question in this thread is called "carbon graphite". Adding the word carbon is unnecessary and only added to conjure up the idea of carbon fiber in a buyer's mind. It has zero carbon fiber.
Thanks Logical ! You really have the skinny on that . I think some of the members are mistaking my carbon graphite question for the predator type carbon . Now that I think about it , my eliminator is 12.7 and the balance for my personal like is spot on for me , that explains why I tend to favor it ! But in broader sense my maples win over any cue with carbon mish mash !
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
We clearly have a disconnect.
About what specifically? You aren't suggesting that the Eliminator contains carbon fiber are you?

I don't play pool professionally or even competitively. Its a hobby and my skill level is that I can basically beat people who don't play at all...so I don't try to give pool advice here. However, I am an Engineering Director at the third or fourth largest carbon fiber material manufacturer in the world. I've designed, developed, prototyped, tested and manufactured composite products in the automotive, recreational vehicle, medical and sports equipment industries. I've worked in or spent considerable time in plants that manufacture carbon fiber material and plants that incorporate it into products, including pool cue shafts. If I didn't understand these things I think it would have come up at some point in the last 3 decades.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
About what specifically? You aren't suggesting that the Eliminator contains carbon fiber are you?

I don't play pool professionally or even competitively. Its a hobby and my skill level is that I can basically beat people who don't play at all...so I don't try to give pool advice here. However, I am an Engineering Director at the third or fourth largest carbon fiber material manufacturer in the world. I've designed, developed, prototyped, tested and manufactured composite products in the automotive, recreational vehicle, medical and sports equipment industries. I've worked in or spent considerable time in plants that manufacture carbon fiber material and plants that incorporate it into products, including pool cue shafts. If I didn't understand these things I think it would have come up at some point in the last 3 decades.
Got a Eliminator question: have any idea just what that black sleeve around the wood is made of? Think its fiberglass with a cf print finish? Possibly a REALLY low-modulus cf of some kind? Thanx
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
Got a Eliminator question: have any idea just what that black sleeve around the wood is made of? Think its fiberglass with a cf print finish? Possibly a REALLY low-modulus cf of some kind? Thanx
It is a coating of woven graphite (thats the pattern you see) and some sort of resin (probably an epoxy), formed onto a wood shaft.

Woven graphite is just that, strands of ordinary graphite woven into a "cloth-like" fabric. Carbon fiber, on the other hand, is a specific manufactured product made from graphite. Making graphite into carbon fiber is a complicated chemical and physical process. Once made, carbon fiber can also be woven or braided or twisted in hundreds of different ways for different applications.

The Eliminator uses woven graphite but not carbon fiber of any kind whatsoever. Obviously, the playability of a cue is subjective but the main difference between a fiberglass Cuetec of decades ago and the graphite Eliminator is appearance and the suggestion of high-tech.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is a coating of woven graphite (thats the pattern you see) and some sort of resin (probably an epoxy), formed onto a wood shaft.

Woven graphite is just that, strands of ordinary graphite woven into a "cloth-like" fabric. Carbon fiber, on the other hand, is a specific manufactured product made from graphite. Making graphite into carbon fiber is a complicated chemical and physical process. Once made, carbon fiber can also be woven or braided or twisted in hundreds of different ways for different applications.

The Eliminator uses woven graphite but not carbon fiber of any kind whatsoever. Obviously, the playability of a cue is subjective but the main difference between a fiberglass Cuetec of decades ago and the graphite Eliminator is appearance and the suggestion of high-tech.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk
Not trying to dispute your knowledge on thus stuff but isn't even that cheap woven material on an Eliminator a form of carbon-fiber? You can't just weave pure carbon. It would have to be in some form of cloth. It does contain carbon. Maybe low-grade but its still carbon-fiber. BTW, all of my background on this subject is the golf shaft side of things. When i was building/repairing clubs i talked to a lot of engineers at the various shaft co's so i do know a tad about this stuff.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
About what specifically? You aren't suggesting that the Eliminator contains carbon fiber are you?
It’s a disconnect because it seems like you are objecting to the term “Carbon Graphite,” a term that is well-known and well-used in the industry both as a generic term and as some companies’ brand name.

Are you suggesting that the Eliminator (edit: I accidentally wrote Excalibur) is made with graphite? That would be odd. Even graphite tennis rackets aren’t made from graphite. They might be made from Graphite (the brand of carbon fiber).
 
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logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
Not trying to dispute your knowledge on thus stuff but isn't even that cheap woven material on an Eliminator a form of carbon-fiber? You can't just weave pure carbon. It would have to be in some form of cloth. It does contain carbon. Maybe low-grade but its still carbon-fiber. BTW, all of my background on this subject is the golf shaft side of things. When i was building/repairing clubs i talked to a lot of engineers at the various shaft co's so i do know a tad about this stuff.
You can process graphite (carbon) into strands that can be woven into cloth. That does not make it carbon fiber in any technical definition that I have ever heard. carbon fiber is not made from pure carbon (or pure graphite), it is made by taking a carbon rich substance, usually acrylic, and processing it in a way that extracts and orients the carbon atoms into strands. There is no such thing as naturally occurring carbon fiber, it has to be manufactured. Graphite occurs naturally. Graphite breaks apart easily which is why a pencil works, you are peeling away at carbon atoms. Carbon fiber is long, thin tightly bonded carbon atoms that don't easily break apart.

Could a marketing person create the suggestion that it is somehow carbon fiber?....yes. But is just plain isn't.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
Carbon fiber, on the other hand, is a specific manufactured product made from graphite.
This may be the heart of our disconnect. I have never heard anyone say this in the material science word. As far as I have ever known, Carbon fiber is made from specifically non-graphited carbon fibers. The addition of graphite makes for a highly reinforced product that makes for better heat resistance. But at its most basic, I only know carbon fiber to be non-graphite fibers of certain lengths.
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
It’s a disconnect because it seems like you are objecting to the term “Carbon Graphite,” a term that is well-known and well-used in the industry both as a generic term and as some companies’ brand name.

Are you suggesting that the Excalibur is made with graphite? That would be odd. Even graphite tennis rackets aren’t made from graphite. They might be made from Graphite (the brand of carbon fiber).

No, I have never in my life said anything here about the Excalibur cue. The Cuetec Excalibur shaft is (was actually, it's no longer made) fiberglass reinforced resin around a wood core. Cuetec does make a carbon fiber series today called the Cynergy. They also make a dozen other models that are still fiberglass reinforced resin over a wood shaft. Even their "Graphite Series" are fiberglass reinforced. They sneak in the term graphite by saying it is a graphite coated shaft to match the butt. Is it graphite reinforcement over the fiberglass or black paint (carbon is what makes black paint black)? I have no idea but it seems if it was the former they would come out and say it.

I don't object to the use of carbon graphite if it's used to describe an ordinary graphite reinforced product. It's a bit of hyperbole to subliminally associate it with actual carbon fiber but that's not uncommon. My point is that something either is or isn't made using carbon fiber and the Eliminator shaft is not.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
No, I have never in my life said anything here about the Excalibur cue. The Cuetec Excalibur shaft is (was actually, it's no longer made) fiberglass reinforced resin around a wood core. Cuetec does make a carbon fiber series today called the Cynergy. They also make a dozen other models that are still fiberglass reinforced resin over a wood shaft. Even their "Graphite Series" are fiberglass reinforced. They sneak in the term graphite by saying it is a graphite coated shaft to match the butt. Is it graphite reinforcement over the fiberglass or black paint (carbon is what makes black paint black)? I have no idea but it seems if it was the former they would come out and say it.

I don't object to the use of carbon graphite if it's used to describe an ordinary graphite reinforced product. It's a bit of hyperbole to subliminally associate it with actual carbon fiber but that's not uncommon. My point is that something either is or isn't made using carbon fiber and the Eliminator shaft is not.
I meant Eliminator.
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
This may be the heart of our disconnect. I have never heard anyone say this in the material science word. As far as I have ever known, Carbon fiber is made from specifically non-graphited carbon fibers. The addition of graphite makes for a highly reinforced product that makes for better heat resistance. But at its most basic, I only know carbon fiber to be non-graphite fibers of certain lengths.
That really wasn't a very good way of putting it on my part, at all. I was thinking "made up of" or something I guess. I should either work or post and not both. Carbon fiber is made by processing out most everything but the carbon from a carbon rich fiber or substance like Polyacrylonitrile or Rayon and forcing it into a certain molecular structure. In general, carbon fiber is about 95% carbon. Much higher and people generally would refer to it as Graphite Fiber but I'm not going to get into that rabbit hole. It's the heating/stretching/controlled environment process, the other elements and the resulting structure that give it the high structural properties.

But I stand by the fact that neither the Eliminator, The Excalibur or the Jackpot have any Carbon Fiber content whatsoever.
 
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cuesblues

cue accumulator
Silver Member
I don't know if they are still making it but the OB Fusion shaft was a good shaft.
Maple over carbon fiber...425.00
Looks like OB has gone to all carbon fiber but I was considering the Fusion shaft.
For carbon fiber I like Jacoby Black, Cuetec Cynergy, and Revo.
Anything Eliminator is cheap junk with no feel.
Like comparing a $400 shaft to a tomato stake
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That really wasn't a very good way of putting it on my part, at all. I should either work or post and not both. Carbon fiber is made by processing out most everything but the carbon from a carbon rich fiber or substance like Polyacrylonitrile or Rayon and forcing it into a certain molecular structure. In general, carbon fiber is about 95% carbon. Much higher and people generally would refer to it as Graphite Fiber but I'm not going to get into that rabbit hole. It's the heating/stretching/controlled environment process, the other elements and the resulting structure that give it the high structural properties.

But I stand by the fact that neither the Eliminator, The Excalibur or the Jackpot have any Carbon Fiber content whatsoever.
One last thing: so you're saying that tubing/sheets, whatever can be made from pure graphite?? I still believe that even that low-modulus stuff used in that Eliminator cue is a form of carbon-fiber. Everything i've been told-n-read seems to say same thing. Carbon fiber can be low-modulus/low tensile strength but its still cf. Whatever, i'm done here.
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
I don't know if they are still making it but the OB Fusion shaft was a good shaft.
Maple over carbon fiber...425.00
Looks like OB has gone to all carbon fiber but I was considering the Fusion shaft.
For carbon fiber I like Jacoby Black, Cuetec Cynergy, and Revo.
Anything Eliminator is cheap junk with no feel.
Like comparing a $400 shaft to a tomato stake

They are still very much available and seem like a good application of carbon fiber to me. I suspect it's a hard sell to most players since it doesn't "look" like a high tech shaft.
 
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