Apparently you never saw Buddy Hall in his prime. I did. Best player i've ever seen in person. He played GREAT pool. For over 35yrs. Little to NO luck involved.
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Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
- Start date
I don't mean outrageous fortune lucky. I do mean no unlucky person ever got to be champion anything. I believe Buddy Hall played smart consistent pool for many years. Still, he never beat Dan Louie. I read that someplace and I don't know the significance of that failure but it supports my notion of the slack in pro sports. Not trying to cut anyone. Just sayin' pool is way better than anyone has ever managed.
Comparing D. Louie to Buddy??? Everyone has players that they had tough time with. Buddy won almost everytime he's played Efren. Dan was a good player but wasn't in Buddy's league. Buddy's career resume speaks for itself. And he looked at OB last. As do most top players.
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I don't know either of them and I have no stake in either's rep but <one guy stumps the best at his own game> does raise some questions doesn't it?
None whatsoever. ANYONE can win a set of 9ball. You have to look at the long-term. NO ONE wins everytime out. If Buddy played Dan a long(13+ games) set or multiple sets over time i like Buddy's end of it. A LOT. If it was an all-around( 9b, banks, 1p) deal Buddy would be like a 75-80% favorite.
I don't know the Hall Louie story but apparently they played many times on a 4x8 and Buddy never won. There's a Lassiter story where him and Don Willis couldn't beat some Chinese guy in Honolulu. Again just the one guy but the point is, pool competition is more about not losing than excellence.
I started this thread to confront the opinions that cue ball last was a flaw. I have provided sufficient evidence that it is not a flaw but a viable alternative.
It has been my experience that players looking at the cue ball as striking it are more receptive to alternatives. While object ball last has more proponents that will say “oh hell no” to the alternative.
I don’t mind thoughtful discussion but ask that it be kept on topic. While I consider Dan Louie(Danny) a friend and could go on for pages with complimentary discussion, this is not the place for it.
It has been my experience that players looking at the cue ball as striking it are more receptive to alternatives. While object ball last has more proponents that will say “oh hell no” to the alternative.
I don’t mind thoughtful discussion but ask that it be kept on topic. While I consider Dan Louie(Danny) a friend and could go on for pages with complimentary discussion, this is not the place for it.
I began experimenting with cue ball last after this thread came up and I feel certain that my game improved and my pocketing really improved because of it. I feel like I have learned that there are some shots where it is critical to use CBL and other shots where OBL will get the job done. But for me when the shot requires that little extra that some shots need then CBL is the way to go.
Thanks Greg for bringing this topic up and giving us this helpful thread.
Paul
Thanks Greg for bringing this topic up and giving us this helpful thread.
Paul
Thank You Paul. It is rewarding to know you found this helpful.
If you enjoy experiments, the phenolic tip with no chalk can be an eye opener as well. While it would not come up in normal competition, I have found it helpful. Looking at the cue ball while striking it might be a big advantage in that experiment.
Anything that makes practice fun! Ronnie O’Sullivan said he enjoys practice as well as competition. In competition I play to have fun.......it’s a lot easier to have fun when winning.
Guess I am allowed. The pro’s complaint on Danny was that he shot so slow. The problem was that he shot slow and never missed. They all knew what Danny was capable of. And the things I have seen him do!
Happy Hour
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Happy Hour
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I am starting to feel like Mo Norman This no chalk challenge is getting good to me.
This no chalk challenge is getting good to me.
It sounds to me like you had been having issues with tip- CB alignment/offset or your stroke that have been alleviated by looking at the CB last. I think it boils down to whatever works best for the individual. After all, once you have sussed out the shot and everything is lined up, you should be able to shut your eyes and stoke the ball in.In the thread Shot / stroke problem a poster put forth the proposition that looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke was "fundamentally wrong". I had already provided evidence that Willie Hoppe considered looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke as fundamentally basic. I had read Willie Hoppies book Billiards As It Should Be Played well over 20 years ago. At the time I was content with my aiming process and just chalked up the cue ball last as a 3 cushion thing. Kind of the way I considered his more upright stance an "Old School" thing compared to the chin on the cue of the top snooker players and shot makers. Anyway the discussion led me to experiment with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013, and am pleasantly surprised with the result.
The first thing I noticed was expected. I was able to much more precisely place the cue ball.
The next noticable improvement was shooting off of the rail. My make percentage improved looking at the cueball.
The break shot was next, I was hitting the rack more squarely and more consistenly controling whitey.
Then I starting improving my make percentage on the long backward angle shots that I have always struggled with.
Now practicing with a new technique and competing are two different things. The first time I put it to the test in competition, it was a leap of faith. My percentage was so low on this shot that I figured what the heck what to lose, might as well try it looking at the cue ball. Length of the table and straight in married to the rail, make it and I get the same shot on the eight ball. It worked perfectly!
Now I am two weeks into this experiment and feeling really comfortable with looking at the cueball. So I go to an old cut shot drill that I know what my percentages of make miss looking at the object ball are and am able to make a higher percentage looking at the cueball last.
So after a couple of weeks my cueball control has improved, my shot making has improved and my confidence has improved with no downside. Could some of this improvement be due to the "New" effect? Certainly, but regardless of why I am thrilled with the improvement in my game.
Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.
Further discussion on this topic can be found in this thread in the Ask The Instructor forum as well.
Why Object Ball Last?
Update-9/7/2015:
This thread has grown to 305 posts. There is a lot of background noise. I am going to consolidate some of the replies and linked information, that I find relevant.
From post #19; TAR interview with Johnny Archer.
From post #26; DrCue'sProtege Quotes from the linked interview.
At about the 45:38 mark Archer says...."Really, the #1 thing you have to concentrate on is the CB cause thats all you will ever hit"
He goes on to say a few seconds later..."Amateurs dont get any better because they dont focus on the CB"
Common sense - CB or OB - its personal preference.
DCP
From post #61 by Taco; "Rodney Morris also looks at CB last. He explicitly says so on the Break & Run DVD set. It gives him better CB control. He says Efren and Parica do the same. But what do they know compared to a keyboard banger?"
In post #361 marikian provides a link to a youtube video titled, "Advanced Fundamentals R Morris".(Edit: Video has been taken down.)
Cue ball last portion.(Video no longer exists.)
The statement that Efren looks at the cue ball last is proven false in this TAR interview. Justin asked Efren on my behalf and his reply indicated he does not. His body language indicate he would find it ........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching motion.
In post #65 CJ Wiley says; "You have discovered for yourself "the cue ball is the target".....we're aware of the object ball on the last stroke, however the real "aiming" is done at the cue ball. The cue ball is where you get your direct feel and is your direct connection to the game. Connection is one of the keys to Consistency in pocket billiards. "
More CJ from post #69; "Just remember, we "aim" at the cue ball because it's the primary target (we actually contact it), and we "connect" to the object ball (because it's the secondary target, we hit it indirectly). This should answer some questions about what's really happening."
When asked by Okie in post #72, what he looked at last. CJ replies in post #76, "I aim at the cue ball last, and shift to the connection {with my eyes} of the object ball {last} as I hit the cue ball. Read this carefully and you'll "real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct, in a manner of speaking."
Upon further inquiry by Okie;
Do you shift focus before, during or after the last backstroke?
Thank you for sharing!
Ken
CJ responds in post#80;
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this.
In post #95, I try to give 3andstop an estimate of my level of play.
Poolmanis posts in #238; "Ronnie(O'Sullivan) said on some shots he watch cueball last even "they say it´s wrong"
It was some episode on his show at Eurosport."
From post #256; I found the episode;Episode 2 at 6:20
Question; "When you're, um, when you're down on this shot.... Are you, is the last the last ball you look at the cue ball? Or the object ball?"
Ronnie; "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."
Question; "No?"
Ronnie; "No, I don't even know. I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white."
From post #286; I link several shots of John Higgins eyes as he shoots.
John Higgins appears to look at the cue ball last:
From post 287; I link Earl Strickland break shot showing eyes.
There has been anecdotal information that Earl looks at the cue ball last. Well I finally found a clip that shows his eyes while shooting. It is a break shot however and not necessarily how he shoots all shots. It does appear that his eyes are on the cue ball.
From post #288; I link to Paul Potier site.
I see Paul Potier added this on his site some time ago. Some very interesting insight from a knowledgeable instructor.
http://paulpotier.com/cue-ball-last-...ect-ball-last/
One last quote from Paul's article: "I had a very good friend who was a great Snooker player. We will just call him Bill. Bill and I played a lot of Snooker together, sometimes running back to back centuries against each other. One day I noticed him looking at the cue ball last during a shot. I asked him why he did that. He said he always looks at the cue ball last. I was shocked! Bill was one of the best Snooker players in Manitoba .......".
If I use CB last on anything other than a short shot where I am applying 'on the fly' BHE or a straight in shot/break shot I tend to miss. My accuracy is much, much better with OB last, apparently because my brain wants to focus on the target, not the arrow.
Different route to the same goal. Half the game is 80% mental.
The target for me is where I deliver the tip at my prescribed velocity and trajectory. The path of the cue ball has been projected. I (when playing well:wink
am looking at the prescribed point of contact on the cue ball. I watch the tip impact (pretend it’s going to explode) then see how the cue ball travels and rotates or not. I know immediately if it’s good. If not right I have a good clue as to what went wrong. If I am focusing on the secondary target I might have a harder time figuring, “how did I F that up?”FWIW, my take on cue last.I started this thread to confront the opinions that cue ball last was a flaw. I have provided sufficient evidence that it is not a flaw but a viable alternative.
It has been my experience that players looking at the cue ball as striking it are more receptive to alternatives. While object ball last has more proponents that will say “oh hell no” to the alternative.
I don’t mind thoughtful discussion but ask that it be kept on topic. While I consider Dan Louie(Danny) a friend and could go on for pages with complimentary discussion, this is not the place for it.
The rest is discussion.
Yes, and much of that is subconscious.Different route to the same goal. Half the game is 80% mental.
I get all of that out of the way before I shift focus to the OB and deliver the stroke. Once I am lined up I take the CB vs tip placement for granted because I trust my stroke. Exceptions: when CB is frozen to the rail and sometimes on the break shot, where the CB might be the last thing I look at.
I (when playing well:wink
I can tell as soon as the CB leaves the tip if it was good or not, whether I last looked at the OB or CB. I feel it and then see it.
It can only be aiming or stroke in any case and if I miss I know which it was by the time I get up from the shot. I don't know if it impacts this discussion or not but I shoot largely by feel and instinct and started doing that very early on. But I had also made many thousands of shots by then, playing 8 hours a day for months.
Without going into my life history as a pool player, several months ago I did some practice looking at the CB last, and I felt it helped me focus on my stroke and having the cue tip strike the ball accurately and where intended.
Looking at the CB last may work when warming up addressing the CB only, but it’s got to be OB last in all other respects. At least for me.
Looking at the CB last may work when warming up addressing the CB only, but it’s got to be OB last in all other respects. At least for me.
Revealing Dan Louie should be a requirement.Guess I am allowed. The pro’s complaint on Danny was that he shot so slow. The problem was that he shot slow and never missed. They all knew what Danny was capable of. And the things I have seen him do!
Happy Hour
Just more significant insight into cue ball last, provided by Stephen Hendry and Neil Robertson.
Neil Robertson and Stephen Hendry at about 3 minutes gets to eye pattern.
Neil Robertson and Stephen Hendry at about 3 minutes gets to eye pattern.
Did you miss the quiet part? Stephen Hendry only held all records before Ronnie. Ronnie when questioned around 2016? Said when questioned about one shot, "I can't be sure. Sometimes it can be either."(gist of)
The camera work provided by Matchroom gives a good look at all players eyes at times. Usually the break off. Ronnie is the hardest to read. Like the man with no eyes, all seeing
.Neil is presented as greatest of the Long Pot by Stephen, so I agree
However the cue ball control is where Ronnie puts others in the dust. Knowledge and strategy can overcome sheer power. I experienced similar challenge when playing young pool players that were playing enhanced.Mark Williams just put a 147 on display. His heavy brow shows up and down movement as he shoots. Stephen describes his movement briefly. The Pause is as critical as the eye pattern.