In the thread Shot / stroke problem a poster put forth the proposition that looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke was "fundamentally wrong". I had already provided evidence that Willie Hoppe considered looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke as fundamentally basic. I had read Willie Hoppies book Billiards As It Should Be Played well over 20 years ago. At the time I was content with my aiming process and just chalked up the cue ball last as a 3 cushion thing. Kind of the way I considered his more upright stance an "Old School" thing compared to the chin on the cue of the top snooker players and shot makers. Anyway the discussion led me to experiment with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013, and am pleasantly surprised with the result.
The first thing I noticed was expected. I was able to much more precisely place the cue ball.
The next noticable improvement was shooting off of the rail. My make percentage improved looking at the cueball.
The break shot was next, I was hitting the rack more squarely and more consistenly controling whitey.
Then I starting improving my make percentage on the long backward angle shots that I have always struggled with.
Now practicing with a new technique and competing are two different things. The first time I put it to the test in competition, it was a leap of faith. My percentage was so low on this shot that I figured what the heck what to lose, might as well try it looking at the cue ball. Length of the table and straight in married to the rail, make it and I get the same shot on the eight ball. It worked perfectly!
Now I am two weeks into this experiment and feeling really comfortable with looking at the cueball. So I go to an old cut shot drill that I know what my percentages of make miss looking at the object ball are and am able to make a higher percentage looking at the cueball last.
So after a couple of weeks my cueball control has improved, my shot making has improved and my confidence has improved with no downside. Could some of this improvement be due to the "New" effect? Certainly, but regardless of why I am thrilled with the improvement in my game.
Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.
Further discussion on this topic can be found in this thread in the Ask The Instructor forum as well.
Why Object Ball Last?
Update-9/7/2015:
This thread has grown to 305 posts. There is a lot of background noise. I am going to consolidate some of the replies and linked information, that I find relevant.
From post #19; TAR interview with Johnny Archer.
From post #26; DrCue'sProtege Quotes from the linked interview.
At about the 45:38 mark Archer says...."Really, the #1 thing you have to concentrate on is the CB cause thats all you will ever hit"
He goes on to say a few seconds later..."Amateurs dont get any better because they dont focus on the CB"
Common sense - CB or OB - its personal preference.
DCP
From post #61 by Taco; "Rodney Morris also looks at CB last. He explicitly says so on the Break & Run DVD set. It gives him better CB control. He says Efren and Parica do the same. But what do they know compared to a keyboard banger?"
In post #361 marikian provides a link to a youtube video titled, "Advanced Fundamentals R Morris".(Edit: Video has been taken down.)
Cue ball last portion.(Video no longer exists.)
The statement that Efren looks at the cue ball last is proven false in this TAR interview. Justin asked Efren on my behalf and his reply indicated he does not. His body language indicate he would find it ........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching motion.
In post #65 CJ Wiley says; "You have discovered for yourself "the cue ball is the target".....we're aware of the object ball on the last stroke, however the real "aiming" is done at the cue ball. The cue ball is where you get your direct feel and is your direct connection to the game. Connection is one of the keys to Consistency in pocket billiards. "
More CJ from post #69; "Just remember, we "aim" at the cue ball because it's the primary target (we actually contact it), and we "connect" to the object ball (because it's the secondary target, we hit it indirectly). This should answer some questions about what's really happening."
When asked by Okie in post #72, what he looked at last. CJ replies in post #76, "I aim at the cue ball last, and shift to the connection {with my eyes} of the object ball {last} as I hit the cue ball. Read this carefully and you'll "real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct, in a manner of speaking."
Upon further inquiry by Okie;
Do you shift focus before, during or after the last backstroke?
Thank you for sharing!
Ken
CJ responds in post#80;
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this.
In post #95, I try to give 3andstop an estimate of my level of play.
Poolmanis posts in #238; "Ronnie(O'Sullivan) said on some shots he watch cueball last even "they say it´s wrong"
It was some episode on his show at Eurosport."
From post #256; I found the episode;Episode 2 at 6:20
Question; "When you're, um, when you're down on this shot.... Are you, is the last the last ball you look at the cue ball? Or the object ball?"
Ronnie; "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."
Question; "No?"
Ronnie; "No, I don't even know. I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white."
From post #286; I link several shots of John Higgins eyes as he shoots.
John Higgins appears to look at the cue ball last:
All these links have gone. The newest videos of John done by Matchroom have excellent camera work and various looks at the players eyes as they shoot.
From post 287; I link Earl Strickland break shot showing eyes.
There has been anecdotal information that Earl looks at the cue ball last. Well I finally found a clip that shows his eyes while shooting. It is a break shot however and not necessarily how he shoots all shots. It does appear that his eyes are on the cue ball.
From post #288; I link to Paul Potier site.
I see Paul Potier added this on his site some time ago. Some very interesting insight from a knowledgeable instructor.
http://paulpotier.com/cue-ball-last-...ect-ball-last/
One last quote from Paul's article: "I had a very good friend who was a great Snooker player. We will just call him Bill. Bill and I played a lot of Snooker together, sometimes running back to back centuries against each other. One day I noticed him looking at the cue ball last during a shot. I asked him why he did that. He said he always looks at the cue ball last. I was shocked! Bill was one of the best Snooker players in Manitoba .......".
Update 3-31-21:
Just reviewed this post and noticed another addition that would be appropriate. Well just trying to make it available without wading through the background noise.
Oscar Dominguez when asked by my wife if he looked at cue ball last replied, “why would I look anywhere else?”
Update 10 year anniversary
3-28-23:
Stephen Hendry and Ronnie O'Sullivan have taken snooker play to another level. Stephen Hendry now has a YouTube channel on which he speaks to the fact that he looks at the white last. He also stated that Ronnie does as well.
Monday May 1, 2023:
The Production of the Snooker World Championship has made knowledge available. A contest that pays half a million pounds to The Victor.($625,000)
The coverage of the entire contest would have value in the range of college tuition. Could be had for $25. Hmmmmmm
With the video and commentary teams producing a true World Class Production. Not to slight the incredible World Championship Finals. Just an incredible performance by the 2 Best.
All that's left for me to say is
5.14.23 additional.
About mid way they address cueball last.
Update 7-26-23
I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013, and am pleasantly surprised with the result.
The first thing I noticed was expected. I was able to much more precisely place the cue ball.
The next noticable improvement was shooting off of the rail. My make percentage improved looking at the cueball.
The break shot was next, I was hitting the rack more squarely and more consistenly controling whitey.
Then I starting improving my make percentage on the long backward angle shots that I have always struggled with.
Now practicing with a new technique and competing are two different things. The first time I put it to the test in competition, it was a leap of faith. My percentage was so low on this shot that I figured what the heck what to lose, might as well try it looking at the cue ball. Length of the table and straight in married to the rail, make it and I get the same shot on the eight ball. It worked perfectly!
Now I am two weeks into this experiment and feeling really comfortable with looking at the cueball. So I go to an old cut shot drill that I know what my percentages of make miss looking at the object ball are and am able to make a higher percentage looking at the cueball last.
So after a couple of weeks my cueball control has improved, my shot making has improved and my confidence has improved with no downside. Could some of this improvement be due to the "New" effect? Certainly, but regardless of why I am thrilled with the improvement in my game.
Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.
Further discussion on this topic can be found in this thread in the Ask The Instructor forum as well.
Why Object Ball Last?
Update-9/7/2015:
This thread has grown to 305 posts. There is a lot of background noise. I am going to consolidate some of the replies and linked information, that I find relevant.
From post #19; TAR interview with Johnny Archer.
From post #26; DrCue'sProtege Quotes from the linked interview.
At about the 45:38 mark Archer says...."Really, the #1 thing you have to concentrate on is the CB cause thats all you will ever hit"
He goes on to say a few seconds later..."Amateurs dont get any better because they dont focus on the CB"
Common sense - CB or OB - its personal preference.
DCP
From post #61 by Taco; "Rodney Morris also looks at CB last. He explicitly says so on the Break & Run DVD set. It gives him better CB control. He says Efren and Parica do the same. But what do they know compared to a keyboard banger?"
In post #361 marikian provides a link to a youtube video titled, "Advanced Fundamentals R Morris".(Edit: Video has been taken down.)
Cue ball last portion.(Video no longer exists.)
The statement that Efren looks at the cue ball last is proven false in this TAR interview. Justin asked Efren on my behalf and his reply indicated he does not. His body language indicate he would find it ........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching motion.
In post #65 CJ Wiley says; "You have discovered for yourself "the cue ball is the target".....we're aware of the object ball on the last stroke, however the real "aiming" is done at the cue ball. The cue ball is where you get your direct feel and is your direct connection to the game. Connection is one of the keys to Consistency in pocket billiards. "
More CJ from post #69; "Just remember, we "aim" at the cue ball because it's the primary target (we actually contact it), and we "connect" to the object ball (because it's the secondary target, we hit it indirectly). This should answer some questions about what's really happening."
When asked by Okie in post #72, what he looked at last. CJ replies in post #76, "I aim at the cue ball last, and shift to the connection {with my eyes} of the object ball {last} as I hit the cue ball. Read this carefully and you'll "real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct, in a manner of speaking."
Upon further inquiry by Okie;
Do you shift focus before, during or after the last backstroke?
Thank you for sharing!
Ken
CJ responds in post#80;
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this.
In post #95, I try to give 3andstop an estimate of my level of play.
Poolmanis posts in #238; "Ronnie(O'Sullivan) said on some shots he watch cueball last even "they say it´s wrong"
It was some episode on his show at Eurosport."
From post #256; I found the episode;Episode 2 at 6:20
Question; "When you're, um, when you're down on this shot.... Are you, is the last the last ball you look at the cue ball? Or the object ball?"
Ronnie; "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."
Question; "No?"
Ronnie; "No, I don't even know. I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white."
From post #286; I link several shots of John Higgins eyes as he shoots.
John Higgins appears to look at the cue ball last:
All these links have gone. The newest videos of John done by Matchroom have excellent camera work and various looks at the players eyes as they shoot.
From post 287; I link Earl Strickland break shot showing eyes.
There has been anecdotal information that Earl looks at the cue ball last. Well I finally found a clip that shows his eyes while shooting. It is a break shot however and not necessarily how he shoots all shots. It does appear that his eyes are on the cue ball.
From post #288; I link to Paul Potier site.
I see Paul Potier added this on his site some time ago. Some very interesting insight from a knowledgeable instructor.
http://paulpotier.com/cue-ball-last-...ect-ball-last/
One last quote from Paul's article: "I had a very good friend who was a great Snooker player. We will just call him Bill. Bill and I played a lot of Snooker together, sometimes running back to back centuries against each other. One day I noticed him looking at the cue ball last during a shot. I asked him why he did that. He said he always looks at the cue ball last. I was shocked! Bill was one of the best Snooker players in Manitoba .......".
Update 3-31-21:
Just reviewed this post and noticed another addition that would be appropriate. Well just trying to make it available without wading through the background noise.
Oscar Dominguez when asked by my wife if he looked at cue ball last replied, “why would I look anywhere else?”
Update 10 year anniversary
3-28-23:Stephen Hendry and Ronnie O'Sullivan have taken snooker play to another level. Stephen Hendry now has a YouTube channel on which he speaks to the fact that he looks at the white last. He also stated that Ronnie does as well.
Monday May 1, 2023:
The Production of the Snooker World Championship has made knowledge available. A contest that pays half a million pounds to The Victor.($625,000)
The coverage of the entire contest would have value in the range of college tuition. Could be had for $25. Hmmmmmm
With the video and commentary teams producing a true World Class Production. Not to slight the incredible World Championship Finals. Just an incredible performance by the 2 Best.
All that's left for me to say is
5.14.23 additional.
Update 7-26-23
Last edited:
