Elbow drop

I'm not sure why there is so much speculation over whether the elbow drops before or after contact. If you play with a fixed elbow it is obvious that the elbow doesn't drop once you know how to play like that. On power shots it probably does drop before contact, but it doesn't have to if you really work at keeping it fixed. I know some believe this is not the best way to play, but I find that my shotmaking and position play are much better when I use the fixed elbow along with the other factors necessary for a clean stroke.
 
Dan White said:
I'm not sure why there is so much speculation over whether the elbow drops before or after contact. If you play with a fixed elbow it is obvious that the elbow doesn't drop once you know how to play like that. On power shots it probably does drop before contact, but it doesn't have to if you really work at keeping it fixed. I know some believe this is not the best way to play, but I find that my shotmaking and position play are much better when I use the fixed elbow along with the other factors necessary for a clean stroke.
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Dan, you have to experiment a lot with an elbow drop prior to contact to understand it's benefits. I understand the technical people's arguments that what matters is what things look like at the exact point of contact. But with a well timed elbow drop prior to contact, you are coming into the shot with the best possible stroke timing and a level cue. I use this technique on certain shots. I have found that it's easier to move the cue ball well with a softer stroke when you're coming to the point of contact with a level cue as opposed to leveling off right at impact as with a fixed elbow type of stroke. On shots along the rail, for example, where there isn't much angle and a portion of the pocket is obscured by the cushion --- playing a shot like that with any kind of decent speed and spin will put the player at risk to miss. But with a dropped elbow prior to contact combined with an extended follow through, I can shoot a shot like that softer and still make the cb move significantly without force that would ordinarily cause a missed shot.
 
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FranCrimi said:
Dan, you have to experiment a lot with an elbow drop prior to contact to understand it's benefits. I understand the technical people's arguments that what matters is what things look like at the exact point of contact. But with a well timed elbow drop prior to contact, you are coming into the shot with the best possible stroke timing and a level cue. I use this technique on certain shots. I have found that it's easier to move the cue ball well with a softer stroke when you're coming to the point of contact with a level cue as opposed to leveling off right at impact as with a fixed elbow type of stroke. On shots along the rail, for example, where there isn't much angle and a portion of the pocket is obscured by the cushion --- playing a shot like that with any kind of decent speed and spin will put the player at risk to miss. But with a dropped elbow prior to contact combined with an extended follow through, I can shoot a shot like that softer and still make the cb move significantly without force that would ordinarily cause a missed shot.
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Hi Fran. I understand your position on this and have read extensively about what happens during the pendulum stroke. I even found a mistake (typo most likely) in Dr. Dave's formula describing the arc of the tip. My conclusion from the math and from looking at it at the pool table is that the tip is horizontal for a good two inches before and two inches after contact, at least for how I hold the cue.

I played my whole life with dropping the elbow and found the fixed one to give me better results. However, I think elbow fixed or not is just a means to an end. If you can deliver the cue straight with dropping the elbow then fine, but it works for me the other way. Maybe after awhile I won't need to fix the elbow anymore and dropping it will work fine, too. Not to shock you (lol) but I get better still results by pausing at the back of the stroke. The pause allows me to relax the arm muscles completely that I can't without the pause, and it even gives me a split second to confirm the aim. I get fantastic results like that, and it was you who originally taught me the importance of the transition.

Edit: I should be clear that I have technically not experimented with dropping the elbow while cueing straight since I went to the fixed elbow. It's just how I played for a long time while trying to deliver the cue and things got immediately better when I switched over to the fixed elbow.
 
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Am I reading this correctly? That elbow drop can be a good thing? Seems like a lot of the PBIA/SPF instructors teach that you have to keep that elbow up and pinned, like a pendulum, the snooker stroke.

r/DCP
 
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FranCrimi said:
I have found that it's easier to move the cue ball well with a softer stroke when you're coming to the point of contact with a level cue as opposed to leveling off right at impact
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Physically, the result should be the same no matter how long before impact the tip was moving horizontally.

I've found that I get the most CB movement/action when I'm most accurate with tip/ball placement, regardless of my angle of approach - which I'm best at with a pinned elbow. Maybe you're best at that with a dropping elbow...?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Physically, the result should be the same no matter how long before impact the tip was moving horizontally.

I've found that I get the most CB movement/action when I'm most accurate with tip/ball placement, regardless of my angle of approach - which I'm best at with a pinned elbow. Maybe you're best at that with a dropping elbow...?

pj
chgo
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I don't get the same results on particular shots and I consider myself to be expert level at using both methods. I think it's a timing issue which isn't something you can quantify that easily. That's why I specifically mentioned timing in my post. Even if it's a softly struck shot, there must be continuous acceleration to the point of impact. I think it's not as easy to do with a pendulum-type swing on those finesse shots as it is with an elbow drop stroke. Unless you've experimented extensively with it, you really shouldn't make judgement calls. I use it on a small percentage of shots, but I consider it a very important and beneficial weapon in my arsenal.
 
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Dan White said:
Hi Fran. I understand your position on this and have read extensively about what happens during the pendulum stroke. I even found a mistake (typo most likely) in Dr. Dave's formula describing the arc of the tip. My conclusion from the math and from looking at it at the pool table is that the tip is horizontal for a good two inches before and two inches after contact, at least for how I hold the cue.

I played my whole life with dropping the elbow and found the fixed one to give me better results. However, I think elbow fixed or not is just a means to an end. If you can deliver the cue straight with dropping the elbow then fine, but it works for me the other way. Maybe after awhile I won't need to fix the elbow anymore and dropping it will work fine, too. Not to shock you (lol) but I get better still results by pausing at the back of the stroke. The pause allows me to relax the arm muscles completely that I can't without the pause, and it even gives me a split second to confirm the aim. I get fantastic results like that, and it was you who originally taught me the importance of the transition.

Edit: I should be clear that I have technically not experimented with dropping the elbow while cueing straight since I went to the fixed elbow. It's just how I played for a long time while trying to deliver the cue and things got immediately better when I switched over to the fixed elbow.
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I never wrote that I shoot all shots that way. It's a weapon in my arsenal that I can pull out when I need it. Sometimes I can play an entire match without needing to shoot an elbow drop shot, other than break shots. Other times I may have to use it a few times in the same game. It doesn't have to be all or nothing with this stroke if you have the confidence to use it occasionally. It does take a certain amount of confidence, though, to switch strokes for a particular shot in the middle of a competition. It takes training.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
Am I reading this correctly? That elbow drop can be a good thing? Seems like all the PBIA/SPF instructors teach that you have to keep that elbow up and pinned, like a pendulum, the snooker stroke.

r/DCP
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Who told you that all PBIA instructors think the same way?
 
FranCrimi said:
I never wrote that I shoot all shots that way. It's a weapon in my arsenal that I can pull out when I need it. Sometimes I can play an entire match without needing to shoot an elbow drop shot, other than break shots. Other times I may have to use it a few times in the same game. It doesn't have to be all or nothing with this stroke if you have the confidence to use it occasionally. It does take a certain amount of confidence, though, to switch strokes for a particular shot in the middle of a competition. It takes training.
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I'm a little confused, then. Are you saying you use the pinned elbow pendulum stroke for most of your shots? I don't think that is what you are saying.
 
FranCrimi said:
Yes. Absolutely. That's exactly what I'm saying.
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I guess I misunderstood your position, then. I thought you discouraged the pendulum stroke because you say it requires a perfect set up so that the tip was moving correctly at contact with the cue ball.
 
Dan White said:
I guess I misunderstood your position, then. I thought you discouraged the pendulum stroke because you say it requires a perfect set up so that the tip was moving correctly at contact with the cue ball.
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I made the same mistake, Fran. Sorry ‘bout that...

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I made the same mistake, Fran. Sorry ‘bout that...

pj
chgo
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No prob... I probably should have been clearer. But I will tell you that if I come across a player who asks for help and they have a well-timed elbow drop stroke for all their shots, I won't try to change it. I've come across a few over the years --- not a lot, but a few that I wouldn't tamper with.
 
Dan White said:
I guess I misunderstood your position, then. I thought you discouraged the pendulum stroke because you say it requires a perfect set up so that the tip was moving correctly at contact with the cue ball.
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The errors that can happen due to the fixed elbow stroke fall within the margin of error for successful ball-pocketing and position play for most shots, so it's not a problem to use that stroke. But on certain shots, like the finesse shot I described before, the chances of a miss with the fixed elbow stroke are beyond the margin of error. That has been my experience with those types of shots, and that's when I switch to the elbow drop stroke. Works like a charm once you learn to trust it.
 
I’m never sure of stroke type or names.

I use a standard Snooker stroke. I don’t believe I drop my elbow however I never think about it.

What I do, however, is make sure I follow through the cueball and the tip of the cue finishes on or an inch or so above the cloth. This prevents or at least minimizes elbow drop. This stroke becomes almost robotic.

If you watch pro Snooker players many are like a wind up toy once down on the shot. All thinking was standing. The shot has been programmed. Get down and press a button and a ‘mechanical’ action happens.
 
Leigh said:
Jasmin ouschan. Watch her practice videos. When she drops her elbow, it seems very purposeful and seems to be after contact. Look at the intro of her Tablestories series.
I love watching her play.
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Comes from having a non-orthodox backswing.
 
Geosnookery said:
I’m never sure of stroke type or names.

I use a standard Snooker stroke. I don’t believe I drop my elbow however I never think about it.

What I do, however, is make sure I follow through the cueball and the tip of the cue finishes on or an inch or so above the cloth. This prevents or at least minimizes elbow drop. This stroke becomes almost robotic.

If you watch pro Snooker players many are like a wind up toy once down on the shot. All thinking was standing. The shot has been programmed. Get down and press a button and a ‘mechanical’ action happens.
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If your tip is finishing an inch or so above the cloth on every shot, then you are either dropping your elbow or manipulating your back hand (such as rolling it) as the cue moves through or maybe a little of both.
 
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FranCrimi said:
If your tip is finishing an inch or so above the cloth on every shot, then you are either dropping your elbow or manipulating your back hand (such as rolling it) as the cue moves through or maybe a little of both.
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If I am then it’s a stroke that works. This is standard snooker follow through. Head still, keep down until ball stop moving...becomes instinct.
 
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