Is This A Difficult Shot For Most?

[straightline]

Team sports is for people dat can't buss a move by demself.

It's generally agreed that haste makes waste. Can't argue there. Still, chops can be honed to lightning quickness without sacrificing precision. It's just with pool the entire body is involved and the drills probably (I have only a clue what they might be) magnitudes more arduous than fingerings and whatnot.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

But why for this shot in particular?

pj
chgo

Why a shot in particular where you hit a tip or to below center and want to come off the rail rolling straight across the table?

Hit ten your way and ten the alternative way and tell us which yields more precision for the cue ball roll.

 

[The_JV]

Believe it or not, but I'm on team Patrick with this one. A direct question was asked to substantiate an opinion. That question has been quoted a couple of times now but nothing relevant to it has been posted.

...just saying

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Why a shot in particular where you hit a tip or to below center and want to come off the rail rolling straight across the table?

Hit ten your way and ten the alternative way and tell us which yields more precision for the cue ball roll.

So you don't know. OK.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

There is a concept in skill development that the faster a person has to execute a skill, the higher the error level. It’s especially crucial in team sports but it shouldn’t be ignored here. When the whole arm is used to deliver the momentum the less the hand feels like it has to get involved in the production of velocity. The extra mass helps create the same momentum with less velocity. There is a sense of more control when the hand takes a back seat to the arm delivering the cue. The difference is subtle because the elbow still has to hinge in a synchronous manner. Coordination learned through a pendulum stroke definitely helps. For me the chief difference is that there is more arm swing rather than an appendage simply hanging.

Once you expand your experience to include different ways to deliver the cue, if you trust your subconscious to pick how to achieve a desired effect, it will pick what it tells itself will do the job most efficiently. When we first try something new if we succeed we tend to keep doing it that way. That said the minute performance suffers our stress level goes up. The tendency is to revert to the familiar, a comfort zone of sorts, only looking to lower the stress. While pushing the envelope, of our current skill set, is how we learn, the envelope has an elastic quality, wanting to retreat to the old. Interestingly enough though if we stretch it far enough it can never return to its original bounds.

Learning to follow through on shots is more a byproduct of what the body has learned to do. It’s a natural result of what the body has learned about what comes before impact, an effect rather than a cause. It’s a result of how the body senses the shot.

I really like what you're saying here, with the exception of the part about your subconscious picking the most efficient way to do something. The subconscious mind is incapable of reasoning. It only knows habit, which is why people develop bad habits as well as good ones.

 

[Imac007]

So you don't know. OK.

pj
chgo

Part of the inner feel dynamic is the total travel distance of the cue ball, how much momentum is taken out of the cue ball based on the cut angle, the rail contact and the type of rotation on the cue ball based on normal acquired contact, tip applied english and needed speed as a result. The subconscious mind makes these calculations in an instance and the conscious mind does best by staying out, relegated to observer reporting to head quarters status. You are asking the conscious mind to describe subconscious and unconscious processes translated from thought Into language. Communication is shared understanding. That our efforts have failed you, apologies. To make things worse I quote CJ, “the game is the teacher”, to explain our communication failure and point you to the answer.

 

[bbb]

Part of the inner feel dynamic is the total travel distance of the cue ball, how much momentum is taken out of the cue ball based on the cut angle, the rail contact and the type of rotation on the cue ball based on normal acquired contact, tip applied english and needed speed as a result. The subconscious mind makes these calculations in an instance and the conscious mind does best by staying out, relegated to observer reporting to head quarters status. You are asking the conscious mind to describe subconscious and unconscious processes translated from thought Into language. Communication is shared understanding. That our efforts have failed you, apologies. To make things worse I quote CJ, “the game is the teacher”, to explain our communication failure and point you to the answer.

great line and comment..

 

[Imac007]

I really like what you're saying here, with the exception of the part about your subconscious picking the most efficient way to do something. The subconscious mind is incapable of reasoning. It only knows habit, which is why people develop bad habits as well as good ones.

The conscious mind might be involved in the decision making but the body will respond in kind with its level of certainty of success. The mind and imagination often writes checks the body can’t cash. There is no denying the body’s reaction to the difficulty of a shot. Research has shown that the area of the brain that makes a decision shows the decision is made before the conscious mind reports a decision. I don’t separate the body from the brain. There is a book https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555 , talking about the reactive type of thinking that simply reports the sudden duck that prevents getting hit in the head by an object compared to the type of decision making used in planning a table. We need to listen to what the body is telling us, whether you want to call it reasoning or not.

Habits can be decisions too. We often decide based on our beliefs, our sense of certainty, concerning what is important within a context. Sometimes we are missing information. When you discover missing information that impacts a decision your response might be “if I’d known that I would have...”. That process is almost a re-write of history, wanting to overturn a decision. It’s one way we can break bad habits.

Sport scientists tells us that peak performance occurs in the domain of the subconscious.

Fran, I’m glad that I shared with someone on some level of understanding. My defense of the subconscious aspect was based on my understanding in the moment, perhaps I’m missing information that will cause me to decide differently.

 

[Imac007]

the conscious mind does best by staying out, relegated to observer reporting to head quarters status

great line and comment..

Glad to see the double entendre found an audience.

 

[FranCrimi]

The conscious mind might be involved in the decision making but the body will respond in kind with its level of certainty of success. The mind and imagination often writes checks the body can’t cash. There is no denying the body’s reaction to the difficulty of a shot. Research has shown that the area of the brain that makes a decision shows the decision is made before the conscious mind reports a decision. I don’t separate the body from the brain. There is a book https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555 , talking about the reactive type of thinking that simply reports the sudden duck that prevents getting hit in the head by an object compared to the type of decision making used in planning a table. We need to listen to what the body is telling us, whether you want to call it reasoning or not.

Habits can be decisions too. We often decide based on our beliefs, our sense of certainty, concerning what is important within a context. Sometimes we are missing information. When you discover missing information that impacts a decision your response might be “if I’d known that I would have...”. That process is almost a re-write of history, wanting to overturn a decision. It’s one way we can break bad habits.

Sport scientists tells us that peak performance occurs in the domain of the subconscious.

Fran, I’m glad that I shared with someone on some level of understanding. My defense of the subconscious aspect was based on my understanding in the moment, perhaps I’m missing information that will cause me to decide differently.

Yes, I think we can agree that the subconscious mind is capable of making a decision. However, it's not able to reason, so it can't determine if a decision is right or wrong. It can only make decisions that it was trained to make. When it encounters a certain stimulus, it will react accordingly, without reason.

For example: You see a shot along a rail, angled left to right, which you have been consistently missing. Your unconscious mind leads you into an approach that starts with your right foot too far to the right of the line of the shot which puts you in the wrong alignment. Your subconscious mind will continue to react that way until you catch the error and retrain yourself consciously to take that first step differently. Through repetition, your neuro-pathways will change and your sub conscious mind will eventually make the new decision when it encounters that angle in the future.

 

[The_JV]

You are asking the conscious mind to describe subconscious and unconscious processes translated from thought Into language. Communication is shared understanding.

Wasn't it your conscious mind that typed the post that contained the information that Patrick asked you to expand on...? Sorry if all of this is buried in your subconscious then how were you aware of it to make the post in the first place.

The easier reply would have been "just cause"...lol

 

[BilliardsAbout]

So you don't know. OK.

pj
chgo

No--YOU don't know, so I said, "Be quiet, shoot the shot, LEARN". What I literally wrote was:

Why a shot in particular where you hit a tip or to below center and want to come off the rail rolling straight across the table?

Hit ten your way and ten the alternative way and tell us which yields more precision for the cue ball roll.

You must have missed the post where I said I use this stroke to land perfectly in position, at will, live with audiences.

"Grow up, 007." -- Q

 

[Imac007]

Wasn't it your conscious mind that typed the post that contained the information that Patrick asked you to expand on...? Sorry if all of this is buried in your subconscious then how were you aware of it to make the post in the first place.

The easier reply would have been "just cause"...lol

Notice how I couldn’t tell him what body sensations I experienced that told me about my certainty level. I’ve tried to figure that out. It’s pretty vague. It seems to be related to my sense of balance. Uncertainty presents itself with a cocked head. Certainty seems to be felt on the center line of the body. Gut feelings, feeling centered, knowing in your heart of hearts all resonate as body reactions. I use centerline evaluations to measure my certainty of a shot, it feeds into prediction of success. I also use it to evaluate my vision center alignment to the cue/shot line. It’s hard to be confident if you are uncertain to any degree.

And you’re not wrong, “just cause” would suffice. I however, enjoy the challenge in Einstein’s quote "Example isn't another way to teach, it is the only way to teach" I just hope it’s true of the examples I share.

"Grow up, 007." -- Q. Are you complaining about sharing secrets or our weapons of choice in situations Major?

 

[Imac007]

Yes, I think we can agree that the subconscious mind is capable of making a decision. However, it's not able to reason, so it can't determine if a decision is right or wrong. It can only make decisions that it was trained to make. When it encounters a certain stimulus, it will react accordingly, without reason.

For example: You see a shot along a rail, angled left to right, which you have been consistently missing. Your unconscious mind leads you into an approach that starts with your right foot too far to the right of the line of the shot which puts you in the wrong alignment. Your subconscious mind will continue to react that way until you catch the error and retrain yourself consciously to take that first step differently. Through repetition, your neuro-pathways will change and your sub conscious mind will eventually make the new decision when it encounters that angle in the future.

I agree. The conscious mind takes things apart while the subconscious assembles. The unconscious takes the wholes, the icons and symbols and learnings to the party. In the expert mind there are few decisions, they know what to do. Sometimes that doesn’t make them happy. Solutions aren’t always pleasant. Unconscious solution are presented with certainty to whatever level chooses to pull forward. I think we are possibly playing with semantics, having more in common at the experience level. Words can fail, with ideas beyond description.

 

[The_JV]

Notice how I couldn’t tell him what body sensations I experienced that told me about my certainty level. I’ve tried to figure that out. It’s pretty vague. It seems to be related to my sense of balance. Uncertainty presents itself with a cocked head. Certainty seems to be felt on the center line of the body. Gut feelings, feeling centered, knowing in your heart of hearts all resonate as body reactions. I use centerline evaluations to measure my certainty of a shot, it feeds into prediction of success. I also use it to evaluate my vision center alignment to the cue/shot line. It’s hard to be confident if you are uncertain to any degree.

And you’re not wrong, “just cause” would suffice. I however, enjoy the challenge in Einstein’s quote "Example isn't another way to teach, it is the only way to teach" I just hope it’s true of the examples I share.

"Grow up, 007." -- Q. Are you complaining about sharing secrets or our weapons of choice in situations Major?

I can't speak for Patrick but I think the point was if using the shoulder adds control to your stroke, then why not use that technique on all shots, and not just the one specific to this thread. I get you're saying that the decison to do so is subconscious, but if you were attempting to train your subconscious to make this choice moving forward. Then what situational circumstance would warrant that conscious approach...?

I know that I would jack up slightly on this shot to force the CB into the rail more squarely. Which would allow for less use of draw and/or siding to reach the other side of the table. Whether or not I would use my shoulder at all, I can't say. If I thought I may be rotating my shoulder during the practice strokes I would make a conscious effort to prevent it.

 

[Imac007]

I can't speak for Patrick but I think the point was if using the shoulder adds control to your stroke, then why not use that technique on all shots, and not just the one specific to this thread. I get you're saying that the decison to do so is subconscious, but if you were attempting to train your subconscious to make this choice moving forward. Then what situationally circumstance would warrant that conscious approach...?

I know that I would jack up slightly on this shot to force the CB into the rail more squarely. Which would allow for less use of draw and/or siding to reach the other side of the table. Whether or not I would use my shoulder at all, I can't say. If I thought I may be rotating my shoulder during the practice strokes I would make a conscious effort to prevent it.

I get it. If the shot calls for a short quick penetration at contact the pendulum stroke would emerge the winner. Also any stun or forcing shot of a shorter nature will be constrained. Shots that normally won’t end up with my thumb in my chest are well suited to a simple pendulum. My proviso is that any time I sense my hand wanting to join the party, the arm stroke feels like it takes me back to a simpler more controlled stroke. Balls close together where my stance puts me more above the shot visually often work better with the whole arm, unless there is a danger of the cue ball coming off the rail back into the tip. Follow on fairly close balls that have fuller contact need short sharp contact, not suited to the arm stroke. It’s just a tool in the stroke tool box. Masse, swerve and jump shots have different setups and stroke mechanics. Ultimately it’s the contact that occurs at the object ball that counts but it’s the tip going through the cue ball surface at impact that determines that effect.

On a different but related topic, every ball sports talks about keeping your eye on the ball. There is an ongoing debate, in pool, about which ball should be the final gaze point before shooting. The topic is a non-starter with me. It’s like taking a snapshot of a movie and placing undue importance on that segment of reality.

The ball matters only in that it is a part of the contact event. The other part of the contact event that matters is your cue tip. The ball and your tip matter only because they come together at a single point in space, what really matters is CONTACT. That happens during the stroke, not before. Screw up there and an unforced error is born. Elevating the importance of a single visual component in the flow of attention, prior to the act of the stroke, is the act of someone trying to find a magic bullet. The magic happens in the interaction and timing of the tip with the ball, at contact.

In baseball research they have discovered that even the best batters can’t see a fastball during the last 10 feet before home plate. Of course, the cue ball is stationary, so it’s easy to dismiss research like this. Rather than focusing on differences in the context, let’s consider a similarity. The batters made swings based on their best estimates of where the ball would be in the contact zone, despite no visible context at impact. The majority of players tout the object ball as the final gaze target. That means they are blind in relation to the actual contact too. Logically the gaze on the object ball means there is the same estimation of the ball location as the batters. Watch good players as they often seem to be measuring exactly where they want to hit the cue ball and how far the tip is from the surface. Small feathers in front of the ball are common, especially on the stop stroke prior to a final shift to a longer stroke and a fixed eye gaze on target. There is inherent precision to all of this even with the arm stroke. It’s what we call coordination, a synthesis and syncing of actions including the arm the elbow and hand.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I can't speak for Patrick but I think the point was if using the shoulder adds control to your stroke, then why not use that technique on all shots, and not just the one specific to this thread.

That's right. I'm skeptical that involving the shoulder in the stroke is a good idea unless it solves some specific issue for a specific shot. I don't believe it adds much (any?) speed control compared to a pendulum stroke, and it complicates stroke accuracy.

pj
chgo

 

[Imac007]

That's right. I'm skeptical that involving the shoulder in the stroke is a good idea unless it solves some specific issue for a specific shot. I don't believe it adds much (any?) speed control compared to a pendulum stroke, and it complicates stroke accuracy.

pj
chgo

I can relate if I fixated on the fact the shoulder moves. In real time the simple rotation of the joint at slow speed causing the elbow and its pendulum a couple of inches to drop does two things. The first is the body needs to start about that much higher. The backswing is a pendulum action. The rotation down before completing a forward pendulum engages the arm rather than the hand as the driver of the cue. The hand can now clear the body as the stroke pulls the elbow down and through. The frozen upper arm dynamic creates tension in the pendulum system. Tension destroys rhythm, timing and flow.

Many a commentator has mentioned that a player letting his stroke out often leads to a flow of the balls.

Mika Immonen is a pro without a frozen upper arm.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I can relate if I fixated on the fact the shoulder moves.

Shoulder movement adds complication to the stroke with or without fixating on it (I agree without is better).

Many a commentator has mentioned that a player letting his stroke out often leads to a flow of the balls.

Or vice verse?

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

mini aside
mika was in my town 2 weeks ago
all we did was work on my stroke
he definitely believed that elbow drop to get thru the cue ball was good
i hope i understood correctly what he tried to show me