Oh My!
I've missed another adventure here.
Woe is me!
Hahahahahaha
I've missed another adventure here.
Woe is me!
Hahahahahaha
Pads between ferrule and tip...when to install vs not install
- Thread starter KUKABUKA
- Start date
It was a sarcastic question. If the glue bond to the ferrule from the tip was done correctly, look at how thick that glue bond really is. It’s less than .001 thick, and in many occasions it’s nearly unmeasurable. Now look at how much area the glue is bonded to. If the leather unglued to a shaft will pancake, and a glued up leather won’t pancake. Then the bond of the glue must have a sufficient level of sideways(we will refer to this as horizontal) strength, along with the end strength(vertical, ie hitting a ball). This is with the cue standing straight up and down.
So now that the vertical load through the tip is absorbed by the glue bond, that will prevent total horizontal expansion. We’re left with addressing the fact that single layered tips are made from a single layer hide that has very coarse grain. When a tip pancakes/mushrooms, the grain of the leather is breaking down. If that breakdown of the grain is so severe, the bonds of the leather grain fail. Vertically the grain is compressed, but horizontally it’s getting ripped apart. Since the glue bond is stronger vertically than it is horizontally. When that horizontal force is applied to a ferrule material that lacks horizontal strength, that ferrule then fails. Sure we can split hairs on that the impact caused the crack. But the tips lack of strength to absorb the impact and suffering grain failure which then leads to the splitting of the ferrule. And no matter how much burnishing one does will prevent a tip from compressing/mushrooming.
Since I refuse to repair ivory at all, and the ivory ferrules I’ve put tips on weren’t layered. A question for those who do work on a lot more ivory ferrules than I do. Has anyone put a Kamui Clear tip on an ivory ferrule? A a stretch of a question, if anyone else has seen such, any reports of them cracking?
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Interesting. I honestly didn't know so it's good to hear some discussion on the matter. I've never had or seen a ferrule crack, unless you're talking about people hitting with the ferrule directly when a tip popped off. I've repaired house cues where they played with no tip and broken the ferrule. I've never used ivory. It makes sense on a cracking prone material to have a solid bond, and something to evenly distribute the horizontal force. I still really don't see the need on modern materials unless you just want it though. If a tip has failed to the point that it no longer protects the ferrule I'd guess any real players would have it replaced. That said, I've also played with and seen people play with tips that were thinner than a dime but still not seen damage from this. I'm not saying it's never happened, just the few dozen cues I've worked on (or saw on the wall in my life) haven't cracked no matter how much use or condition the tip was in when I received them.
A cracked ferrule seems to be either abuse or a poor material from what I've seen.
can't wait for the next threaded or not threaded argument
The clear acrylic pad Under a Kaumi tip is all about looks.
Just like inlays and fancy rings they add nothing to the play-ability but a lot of style if you like that type of thing.
I have been installing red clear acrylic pads under tips for many years just to have a different look.
I now offer my tip customers various colors if they so choose.
As for fiber pads very seldom is there a real need for them.
Again it is mostly about looks.
Just like inlays and fancy rings they add nothing to the play-ability but a lot of style if you like that type of thing.
I have been installing red clear acrylic pads under tips for many years just to have a different look.
I now offer my tip customers various colors if they so choose.
As for fiber pads very seldom is there a real need for them.
Again it is mostly about looks.
FOUND THEM, I'm ready
Attachments
So what you are NOW saying is that you don't have any facts to back your statement that you earlier claimed was 'FACTS' that mushrooming tips cause cracked ferrules.....all I did was state my opinion about the need for pads...never claimed it as fact, but you claimed your opinion as factual and that I was incorrect...well, you are officially in the Ricky group of spreading missinformation as truth based solely on your 'opinion' and knocking any other opinions. I didn't get triggered...you did, hence your frontal attack on my opinion with your garbage that you cannot even prove and no other very experienced repair guy has come forward to back you up. I have 22+ yrs of doing this, and while I'm not an expert, I know what I have seen and come across. Based on your claim of how the leather moves etc, and cracks the ferrule, how do you explain a triumph tip with the red pad being on a bar cue and the ferrule has cracked? I have seen it many times...... Your 'theory' is flawed, IMHO.
I replaced more ferrules in my early years than almost anyone else in the country. I can say I am totally convinced I saw many Meucci ferrules with the 3/8 tenon cracked from the old LePros mushrooming. I saw some Ivory that seemed to have done the same thing. So at that time on the Meuccis I cut tenons down to 5/16 or put a pad on them. I put pads on all Ivory ferrules. You might ask how I know it was the tip spreading that caused it. Because the tip was even with the ferrule edge like an old musket gun with the ferrule flared. Then I saw over time with the pad the LePro just buldged out over the side and the ferrule was normal under the pad. That is why I started pressing tips before installing them.
Last edited:
Thank you for that. If I took more time, maybe I could figure this out but not going to bother right now. I’m trying to member search and it’s not where I thought it was. Is Thomas Wayne still banned? I know Dennis Searing would have some good info to share too, but his visiting seems random. A couple other makers I thought were on this site and had made posts regarding this matter I cannot find at all. I know that there has been some accounts/posts deleted, but since the forum software switch I haven’t invested enough time in XenForo like I did the vB software to figure this out.
FreebirdQguy
New member
Can you elaborate on prep and glue? I am learning and would like to learn more.I put a pad on 99% of all the shafts I build. My ferrules are thru design. I've used both fiber and phenolic pads on these shafts with yet a one to come off during play (that I know or heard of) in 20 plus yrs.
Glue type used and prep are mandatory for the longevity effect.
My player has the same pad/tip and ferrule design since 2004.
I break with the same cue I play with.
I don't play as much as I used to but still take it out for an occasional run around the green with zero tip problems.
Maybe I'm just lucky!
Hitting a ball with a leather tip is going to exert an outward force through the entire tip. More with some tips than others. A soft tip is very pliable where a hard tip will give very little. A pad is merely cheap insurance to avoid a costly repair. A thin layer of adhesive will not contain this outward pressure nearly as efficiently as a pad does. It's the exact same pressure on any type ferule as it is on an ivory ferule. It's just that the ivory tends to fail much easier when subjected to that pressure making it a very important step when installing any tip on an ivory ferule.
With Ivory ferrules becoming more of a thing from the past, and shorter ferrules the NOW thing. Pads are used more to support the shorter length of the ferrules.
I've always been a proponent of the shorter ferrule as far back as 25 yrs ago. Darn copy cats now!
Just to add to your comment, I use a thru style ferrule with a large threaded tenon so I do like the thin phenolic pads for that support.
Plus it helps keep the repair guys
from shaving down the ferrule on a tip replacement. 
I learn so much here!