APA foul?

justadub said:
I don't know if you've ever played APA or not. It is a beginner league, or more accurately, a league that includes many beginners. Its also a casual league, for many who play.

I have seen someone line up to hit an object ball before, instead of the cue ball. We caught them before it happened. Genuine brain fart. They were suitably embarrassed when it was pointed out. But it was genuine. (That person wasn't brand new, either.)

Stuff happens in a casual league. Peoples thoughts wander, they could get distracted, they could be having some personal stuff going on...any of a thousand things. APA isn't a league for only serious players, tho there are many who take it (too) seriously.

Then, to APA Operators point, someone who you believe is intentionally hitting an object ball, on purpose, well that's a whole different thing. And sadly you can find people who will go to any length to get an advantage, or to take advantage of a rule.

And to "defend"...the rule in APA is cue ball fouls only. So if you hit an object ball as in the original discussion, by definition you haven't hit the cue ball, so no foul has occurred. As others have pointed out, it could be construed as a "Sportsmanship Foul", but that's a gray area and truly needs a league official present to actually enforce it.
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I've played APA. It is not a casual league, as I've seen it. There are a ton of players who taller it very seriously, moreso than the non handicapped leagues I've been in.
 
I was in APA when I first started playing. I would say it was serious, but people tried to keep it casual. Saw just as many hot head fights in APA as I've seen in the other leagues. I'm in two different leagues right now and have to keep the rules straight between them. One like APA lets you bump a ball (not the cue ball) and it can be reset without a foul. the other league is different. Any contact with any ball that causes it to move any amount is a foul and BIH.

APA is looser, so novices can play with seasoned players with less chance of being nitpicked with fouls. I see something as bone headed as shooting the object ball with your cue as a foul since you are required to hit the cue ball first. Hitting the balls out of order is a foul, just like hitting the opponent's ball before hitting one of yours is a foul imo.

side note: I had a guy shooting at the 3 ball and he grazed the 8 ball first. He argued that the 8 ball was solid so it wasn't a foul. He argued loudly even after his captain confirmed the foul. He had been playing for 20 years so he wasn't a novice, just an asshole. ;)
 
stumpie71 said:
Not a foul on APA. Even if done intentionally it still is not a foul.

However it is a sportsmanship violation, which depending on the circumstances can result in a warning, ball in hand for opponent, loss of game, or loss of match.
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I can't find my rule book but I think there is an exception for people who are drunk as a skunk and don't realize what they are doing. If you are really drunk then it isn't unsportsmanlike conduct, just a drunken idiot mistake. Opposing captain can require a breathalyzer test to ensure the player isn't just faking being drunk.
 
Chili Palmer said:
Believe me, intent has a lot to do with it. I have not played APA for about a year but I had this conversation with our LO a few times. Read the rules, I believe they say "if an object ball is 'accidentally' moved", key word - accidentally - if it is intentional it is a foul.
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Chili is 100% correct. I reread the rules last night and i
WoodyJ said:
O.K. I've followed this thread and lurked so far because I've never played APA. But, I'm just trying to make sense of what happened, so I have to ask:

It sounds like the person was on the 8-ball and supposed to be shooting it into a pocket to win (i.e., they had already made all of their balls except for the 8-ball)? If so, when they were given a second chance to shoot again, did they then shoot the cue ball at the 8-ball and try to pocket it for the win and missed? If so, this should be complete unadulterated hogwash in anyone's rule book.

And, if the above is true, when they originally shot the 8-ball "accidentally" thinking it was the cue ball, what the heck did they shoot at and what ball were they calling? Because, the only other balls on the table would have been the cue ball and the opponent's balls? And, since the cue ball didn't move and they contacted other ball(s), they must have been shooting at one of the opponent's balls or trying to just shoot the 8-ball directly into a pocket or miscued?

What am I missing?
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Ok let me see if I can explain this better.
The person was on the 8 ball. Their opponent had OBs left. They lined up to aim the 8. Instead of moving back to the CB, they shot the 8 after aiming. The 8 bumped some of the opponents OBs. The CB never moved. After ample arguments from both sides the table was reset. The player than missed the 8 ball into the side pocket. Then lost the game after all that.
I wasn't there. Based on how it was explained to me, it sounded more like they just messed up than maliciously hit the 8 in anger or frustration. They were on the 8 about to win. What is there to be angry about at that point?
 
NathanDetroit said:
In your junior league, how were they taught? My guess is there were mistakes made at the table which were part of the teaching.

How would a mistake like that in the OP be handled by your coaches?
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Not sure what you mean about handled, are you talking about in a match or practice? Don't think I ever have seen them use another ball as a cueball in like 5 years of being around the kids but there is really nothing to handle. In a game, it's a foul, in practice they do it once and then learn not to do it. Or any foul once they are taught the rules. But the rules are gone over before any competition starts during practice.
 
justadub said:
And to "defend"...the rule in APA is cue ball fouls only. So if you hit an object ball as in the original discussion, by definition you haven't hit the cue ball, so no foul has occurred. As others have pointed out, it could be construed as a "Sportsmanship Foul", but that's a gray area and truly needs a league official present to actually enforce it.
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So the thing with cueball fouls only, that is only during a legal shot otherwise. You can't just whack balls all over the place as long as it's not the cueball, that is just silly in any situation outside of a couple of 6 year olds playing. The cueball fouls only is for accidental movement of balls other than the cueball during a shot. You strike the cueball and if you move other balls by accident, then it's not a foul (unless you move more than one or the moved ball interferes with the shot). A legal shot in pool requires striking the cueball, if you don't, it's a basic game foul. But again this hinges on the fact it's APA and they tend to toss reason and basic rules of the game out the window in more than one of their rules.
 
APA Operator said:
I think the TD made the right call. There are some comments in this thread that confuse the issue. First, this is not about teaching someone the rules. I'm sure the player in question knew you're supposed to shoot the cue ball first, so references to people not knowing the rules are just another way to insult APA rules. Second, ball-in-hand is a penalty, and can be applied to both fouls and to sportsmanship violations. Calling them sportsmanship fouls only confuses things. The shot was clearly not a foul under APA rules. Fouls are listed in the Team Manual. The question then becomes, how do you resolve the situation? First, the TD must decide intent and penalize accordingly. If it is determined that the player was trying to get some advantage by changing the layout of the table, the TD can penalize with ball-in-hand or stronger. Loss of game is possible, as is loss of match, as is disqualification from the tournament, even suspension from the APA. That part is up to the TD's (and LO's) discretion. If it was an innocent brain fart with no malintent, then all balls moved are considered moved by accident, and the game resumes with no penalty after the table is reset. To reset the table, the opponent replaces the balls where they were (if possible) and the original player shoots again. If replacement is determined to be impossible, then you terminate the game. In 8-Ball you start it over and the original breaker breaks. In 9-Ball you mark the remaining balls dead and the shooter who struck the 8-Ball breaks (though it's not likely in 9-Ball that you can't replace two balls).

Those are the rules. You don't have to agree with them, just abide by them if you play by them. There are many folks here who don't like the discretionary part, and that's ok, but it does shorten the Team Manual and soften the consequences of an honest mistake.
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How on earth is not hitting the cueball with the cue first not a foul? That is the basic core of the game, anything else you are not even playing pool. Unless using an object ball as a cuball is specifically listed in the rules, it is can't be a "cueball fouls only" situation, it it simply an illegal shot in pool. The ball was not moved during a legal shot by accident, they went over to the ball, and struck it with the cue, intentional or not, that action is totally deliberate, you can't just hit the ball with a cue by mistake this way. Now after hitting the ceball you can hit another ball by accident, I guess the APA does not care about that, but that is not this situation. Just because it was the wrong ball that was used is not an excuse for it not to be an illegal shot, otherwise every illegal shot can be excused as an accident. Well I MEANT to hit that ball after a safe, I just missed it by accident so it's OK. Even for the APA that's a bit much. It's like someone forgetting to tag all the bases in baseball but them saying, well it was an accident he really meant to just missed so let's play the inning over.
 
Would've really been nice if his opponent had just said something first, when seeing him line up on the 8 ball. That would have been real sportsmanship in my book.
 
hang-the-9 said:
So the thing with cueball fouls only, that is only during a legal shot otherwise. You can't just whack balls all over the place as long as it's not the cueball, that is just silly in any situation outside of a couple of 6 year olds playing. The cueball fouls only is for accidental movement of balls other than the cueball during a shot. You strike the cueball and if you move other balls by accident, then it's not a foul (unless you move more than one or the moved ball interferes with the shot). A legal shot in pool requires striking the cueball, if you don't, it's a basic game foul. But again this hinges on the fact it's APA and they tend to toss reason and basic rules of the game out the window in more than one of their rules.
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Great explanation. It will fall on deaf ears.

The long and short of this is that APA rewards the lowest level players way too much and calls it 'sportsmanship'.

Let me tell you the other side of sportsmanship:. Taking your loss or owning your error like a man.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
Great explanation. It will fall on deaf ears.

The long and short of this is that APA rewards the lowest level players way too much and calls it 'sportsmanship'.

Let me tell you the other side of sportsmanship:. Taking your loss or owning your error like a man.
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Totally.

If I was on the 8-ball and aiming at it to shoot it in the side pocket and had a brain fart and "accidentally" shot it directly into the side pocket, that's bad enough and embarrassing but apparently excusable (under APA rules). O.K., so be it. It's the nature of the beast.

But, to aim for the side pocket (apparently with nothing in the way) and directly shoot the 8-ball at the side pocket and then strike more than one of my opponent's balls in the process and then claim it's not a foul (and ask to have the table get reset) is beyond belief.

IMHO, one of the great things about non-APA rule changes in BCA, etc. over the years has been to make the rules more objective, mitigate the element of luck and definitely not rely on someone's intent. Because, who the heck knows what's going on in your opponent's mind regardless of what they claim?

You should be able to record a video of a shot (from all angles), replay the shot and make an objective determination (based on the rules) if a foul occurred based solely on what happened on the table. Not what went on inside your opponent's head because there is no way of recording/knowing that after the fact!

If you screw up, just admit it, move on and consider it a lesson learned and vow to never repeat the mistake. Don't try and twist the rules to cheat your opponent. I mean really, this was supposed to be in a "tournament" and not some typical weekly play or practice session. If you are in a tournament grow up and put your big boy/girl pants on before playing.
 
please read the rule book............ you can do anything that moves the object balls ........ push them in a pocket..... pick one up and bounce it on the floor............. just put them back....... I can grab an object ball and use it as a bridge ... as long as the cue ball is not touched or moved............... no foul....................
 
whammo57 said:
please read the rule book............ you can do anything that moves the object balls ........ push them in a pocket..... pick one up and bounce it on the floor............. just put them back....... I can grab an object ball and use it as a bridge ... as long as the cue ball is not touched or moved............... no foul....................
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If I'm not mistaken, if the ball you accidently touch then touches another OB or the CB then it is a foul.
 
whammo57 said:
please read the rule book............ you can do anything that moves the object balls ........ push them in a pocket..... pick one up and bounce it on the floor............. just put them back....... I can grab an object ball and use it as a bridge ... as long as the cue ball is not touched or moved............... no foul....................
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So the main thing that APA has in common with an actual game of pool is that both are done in the general vicinity of a pool table. Not moving balls to rearrange the playing layout is as important to a proper game of pool as using a cue or having pockets on the table. On the other hand, you have a tight position play or a ball not quite makeable, just bump it around a bit and move it to a better place. Dead combo on the 9, just hit the thing and then complain that it was not dead loudly when someone tried to set it up again the same way. Makes things a bit easier on the cheaters.
 
jimmyco said:
In APA, it's best to look for and ask whoever has the most patches on their vest.
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In my experience, he's generally the guy doing these things.

Man the patches. I remember getting an invoice to order all the patches I earned. I usually throw out my clothes if they get holey, so I didn't order any. Shortly after the LO kicked me out of the league because I started too late in the season (nevermind that he told us we were ahead of the deadline).
 
DeeDeeCues said:
In my experience, he's generally the guy doing these things.

Man the patches. I remember getting an invoice to order all the patches I earned. I usually throw out my clothes if they get holey, so I didn't order any. Shortly after the LO kicked me out of the league because I started too late in the season (nevermind that he told us we were ahead of the deadline).
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I have the feeling there is more to the story you are not telling us.
 
buckshotshoey said:
I have the feeling there is more to the story you are not telling us.
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Nope. Joined a team, talked to the lo. End of season comes and he said that I joined too late. Team was given the option to forfeit their place in the upcoming tourney, or take me off the roster and forfeit my wins.

So while he didn't explicitly kick me out, that was the effect he knew it would have.
 
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