coolidge
Well-known member
Not yet, I have the tools now but have been too busy with the day job this week. I will this weekend though.
So What Does One Do When They Don't Have a Decent Local Mechanic...?
- Thread starter The_JV
- Start date
Man, day jobs suck... I could get so much more diy done if I didn't have pay for stuff.
I appreciate the willingness to perform the leg work. Whenever the opportunity presents itself.
Have you been able to play with your new Makita mitersaw yet...?
coolidge
Well-known member
No, it's still sitting in the garage boxed up. (day job face palm)
Ok, post weekend update. Well really, just a post Saturday update....
I have exciting news:
Yup, the pocket miters have been cut. Final angles are:
To confirm my saw's settings and repeatability, I used a 2x6 for practice cuts and tweaked as necessary.
You can see the extensions I put on the saw to make sure the rails would end up square to the fence. Those extensions at their ends are not rigid at all, but are square and run straight. The intention was to always clamp the rail to the saw so the extensions at that end are more for reference then work holding. Something else the above pic doesn't show is the extra depth(thickness) of the fence I needed. For the most part I couldn't generate a full cut on the miters and would end up with a tiny amount of the subrail extension remaining. The blade would have ended up cutting the back of the pocket opening without offsetting it more from the fence. I ended up sandwiching a couple strips of the same .5" plywood I used for the subrail extensions. Didn't completely solve the problem, but it was close enough.
So here's where I start to deviate from the good advice I've gotten thus far. Once I had the saw set up for the left hand corner miters. I spent a couple of minutes hunting for oversights. What I did discover was that with minor effort, my saw blade would deflect at least a degree or more when pushed on laterally. I never expected "zero" deflection, but it was sloppy enough that it raised some concern. Keeping in mind that the process was to use a sanding disk in the saw and feed the rail into it. Regardless, I needed to trim down a bunch of material before even considering the sanding disk. The idea was to trim the bulk off with the blade on all common miters and then switch to the sanding disk.
Here's the aftermath of trimming off the fat. The pass took a tiny bit of the extension and lopped off the over hanging cushion.
What the above pic doesn't really illustrate is how cleanly the 60T carbide blade sliced through cushion. Now I'm not suggesting at all that I know better than anyone. What I am saying is that based on the results I saw with just a blade I felt that it warranted a finished cut test to potentially avoid the problematic deflection I saw with the lateral force against the blade.
I left that pic big intentionally so you can see how cleanly the carbide 60T blade performed the deed. The other benefit in my particular case is that I use staples to hold the extensions during glue up. You may also notice the various markings on the cushion and subrail. I couldn't remove the incorrect markings on the wood (fine sharpie) but the single line on the cushion is correct. That said, the goal is the correct point to point pocket width not following the line. Due the curved profile of the cushion. The point is actually lower than the top of the rail and subsequently further 'down' the beveled cut (downward angle). So when I cut the miters, I aligned the blade to the point marking, not the traced miter. If I had used the 'top line' my pocket opening would be wider the than goal.
You also notice what I was mentioning earlier about not being able to completely cut off the extension. The fix would have been to further offset the rail away from the fence. As it was, most cuts were completed. Only a couple had this issue, and it was easily resolved. Also keep in mind that the extension beyond the feather strip will be removed. It's as long as it is, because I wasn't sure if the meat below the feather strip would be beneficial.
When it came time to set up for the right hand miters, I opted to set up the fence with zero clearance. This just reinforced my comfortability with directly cutting the rails rather then using the sanding disk.
Here's the finished miter without touch up.
Just some light witness marks from the mitersaw. You may pick up on the flush cut hand saw marks on the bottom left corner. Hard to argue against the results above.
The bad news is one of my extensions ended up having a decent void along the cut line. I forgot to snap a pic, but the good news is it's well below the contact point of an OB. Not entirely sure how I'm going to deal with it just yet. Not really high on the concern meter considering the location.
In the end, all the pockets have now been cut, and there's just some clean up work to do on the extensions before gluing on the facings.
I have exciting news:
Yup, the pocket miters have been cut. Final angles are:
- Corner: 141 / 11
- Side: 103 / 11
To confirm my saw's settings and repeatability, I used a 2x6 for practice cuts and tweaked as necessary.
You can see the extensions I put on the saw to make sure the rails would end up square to the fence. Those extensions at their ends are not rigid at all, but are square and run straight. The intention was to always clamp the rail to the saw so the extensions at that end are more for reference then work holding. Something else the above pic doesn't show is the extra depth(thickness) of the fence I needed. For the most part I couldn't generate a full cut on the miters and would end up with a tiny amount of the subrail extension remaining. The blade would have ended up cutting the back of the pocket opening without offsetting it more from the fence. I ended up sandwiching a couple strips of the same .5" plywood I used for the subrail extensions. Didn't completely solve the problem, but it was close enough.
So here's where I start to deviate from the good advice I've gotten thus far. Once I had the saw set up for the left hand corner miters. I spent a couple of minutes hunting for oversights. What I did discover was that with minor effort, my saw blade would deflect at least a degree or more when pushed on laterally. I never expected "zero" deflection, but it was sloppy enough that it raised some concern. Keeping in mind that the process was to use a sanding disk in the saw and feed the rail into it. Regardless, I needed to trim down a bunch of material before even considering the sanding disk. The idea was to trim the bulk off with the blade on all common miters and then switch to the sanding disk.
Here's the aftermath of trimming off the fat. The pass took a tiny bit of the extension and lopped off the over hanging cushion.
What the above pic doesn't really illustrate is how cleanly the 60T carbide blade sliced through cushion. Now I'm not suggesting at all that I know better than anyone. What I am saying is that based on the results I saw with just a blade I felt that it warranted a finished cut test to potentially avoid the problematic deflection I saw with the lateral force against the blade.
I left that pic big intentionally so you can see how cleanly the carbide 60T blade performed the deed. The other benefit in my particular case is that I use staples to hold the extensions during glue up. You may also notice the various markings on the cushion and subrail. I couldn't remove the incorrect markings on the wood (fine sharpie) but the single line on the cushion is correct. That said, the goal is the correct point to point pocket width not following the line. Due the curved profile of the cushion. The point is actually lower than the top of the rail and subsequently further 'down' the beveled cut (downward angle). So when I cut the miters, I aligned the blade to the point marking, not the traced miter. If I had used the 'top line' my pocket opening would be wider the than goal.
You also notice what I was mentioning earlier about not being able to completely cut off the extension. The fix would have been to further offset the rail away from the fence. As it was, most cuts were completed. Only a couple had this issue, and it was easily resolved. Also keep in mind that the extension beyond the feather strip will be removed. It's as long as it is, because I wasn't sure if the meat below the feather strip would be beneficial.
When it came time to set up for the right hand miters, I opted to set up the fence with zero clearance. This just reinforced my comfortability with directly cutting the rails rather then using the sanding disk.
Here's the finished miter without touch up.
Just some light witness marks from the mitersaw. You may pick up on the flush cut hand saw marks on the bottom left corner. Hard to argue against the results above.
The bad news is one of my extensions ended up having a decent void along the cut line. I forgot to snap a pic, but the good news is it's well below the contact point of an OB. Not entirely sure how I'm going to deal with it just yet. Not really high on the concern meter considering the location.
In the end, all the pockets have now been cut, and there's just some clean up work to do on the extensions before gluing on the facings.
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It's been a week and progress had been at a dead stop since my last post. I had a bit of a 'whoops' moment and buried my little flush cut saw into the side of my thumb. Blah blah blah, drama drama drama, it hurt a lot and couldn't use it. Finally at a point where I can lightly grip things so I'm back at it.
So now with the miters cut (for the most part) I'm switching my attention to the other aspects of this reno. None of this has anything to do with subrail extensions, pocket geometry, cushion replacment. So what educational value this thread may have been providing, it will be taking a backseat to being more of a personal blog for the next while.
On with the show:
I had a few scopes of work I wanted to take on while the table rails were torn down. The most improtant being out of the way (pocket geometry) I can shift gears into the next task. Replacing the horribly cheap plastic rail caps that trim out the table.
So there's even a worse smaller version behind the side pockets. These 'caps' are easily the cheapest option to finish out the transition between rail sections. Practically speaking they do for the most part cover the area, and allow breathing room to freely adjust the rails.
After I sanded off the original finish and discovered the red oak material, a light bulb turned on.
I had a good sized chunk of red oak floating around for years. Can't even remember how it ended up in my hands. The idea was to ditch the plastic caps and finish off the rail transition in a more pleasing manner. As always, I tend to get locked up with over analysis, so once I had the opprotunity to use my thumb again I grabbed a rail and jigged it up in the saw.
So with the bandaid ripped off, there's no going back....lol
The chunk of wood at the left in the above pic is the piece that will be replacing the plastic cap.
Thank you Diamond for providing the inspiration...
The size on the blanks were completely driven by the amount of material I had on hand and what appeared aesthetically pleasing. I played with the dimensions until I found a shape I liked, then measured for angle. Did the relative math to set up the mitersaw, and threw caution to the wind.
Last night I spent considerable time locking down the rails once again. Double, and triple checking square and playing dimensions. After all that was said and done, I have only one blank that requires an extremely minor adjustment for a rock solid fit.
Next step is to develop a new bracket to secure the blank to the rails. I was really hoping to find an excuse to machine something for this project...lol. When I have the new rail transitions secured. I will knock down the blanks with the belt sander to blend them in with the surround rail profile.
So now with the miters cut (for the most part) I'm switching my attention to the other aspects of this reno. None of this has anything to do with subrail extensions, pocket geometry, cushion replacment. So what educational value this thread may have been providing, it will be taking a backseat to being more of a personal blog for the next while.
On with the show:
I had a few scopes of work I wanted to take on while the table rails were torn down. The most improtant being out of the way (pocket geometry) I can shift gears into the next task. Replacing the horribly cheap plastic rail caps that trim out the table.
So there's even a worse smaller version behind the side pockets. These 'caps' are easily the cheapest option to finish out the transition between rail sections. Practically speaking they do for the most part cover the area, and allow breathing room to freely adjust the rails.
After I sanded off the original finish and discovered the red oak material, a light bulb turned on.
I had a good sized chunk of red oak floating around for years. Can't even remember how it ended up in my hands. The idea was to ditch the plastic caps and finish off the rail transition in a more pleasing manner. As always, I tend to get locked up with over analysis, so once I had the opprotunity to use my thumb again I grabbed a rail and jigged it up in the saw.
So with the bandaid ripped off, there's no going back....lol
The chunk of wood at the left in the above pic is the piece that will be replacing the plastic cap.
Thank you Diamond for providing the inspiration...
The size on the blanks were completely driven by the amount of material I had on hand and what appeared aesthetically pleasing. I played with the dimensions until I found a shape I liked, then measured for angle. Did the relative math to set up the mitersaw, and threw caution to the wind.Last night I spent considerable time locking down the rails once again. Double, and triple checking square and playing dimensions. After all that was said and done, I have only one blank that requires an extremely minor adjustment for a rock solid fit.
Next step is to develop a new bracket to secure the blank to the rails. I was really hoping to find an excuse to machine something for this project...lol. When I have the new rail transitions secured. I will knock down the blanks with the belt sander to blend them in with the surround rail profile.
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tomatoshooter
Well-known member
So you are a bracket attached to each rail end and the filler piece will sit on top? I like it! Looking forward to seeing this idea develop more.
Looks good. If it were me, I'd use a good threaded hardwood insert for where the end-caps will attach to the rails. Each time you recover, the screw hole will wear.
Yes exactly... The sketch above was me explaining what I wanted to do and the reasoning behind it to someone at work. Obviously it got a tad messy. Didn't think anyone would make clear sense of it.
The original design utilized sheet metal 'brackets' that bridged both rails and were held in place by 4x .5" screws. Not much in the way of locking them together, but it did help to hit the groud running when re-assembling the rails. Now that I've cut out that somewhat mating section from the rails, that old bracket has nothing to screw into, so a wheel needed reinvention.
The new bracket shape was born from a few requirements. First and fore most. It needed to securely hold the two rails together. I saw an opprotunity to improve the mouse trap as it were. While the original relied on screws to position and facilitate tying them together. My new thought is to use a wood working trick and mechanically lock the rails together.
That is what's referred to as either a 'bowtie' or 'butterfly' joint. Regardless of what you call it. It's shape prevents outward movement. Basically you make your bowtie, then mill an appropriately sized pocket for it to sit in. In theory you don't even need to glue these into place as they are meant to prevent wood from splitting further. In my situation they will be held by a screw or two, but those screws are not required beyond preventing the bracket from dropping out.
Now I'll be only using a 'half bowtie' on either side of the bracket so that means the bracket will require an edge that the rail vertical face will register to.
Horrible Paint sketch...:
Please don't judge me to the above...lol. However the concept remains. Bowties that will be seated within the adjacent rail ends and registered to the center portion that bridges the gap. The wooden cap sits on top of the bracket and is only cosmetic. The goal is to have these brackets literally lock the rails together and hopefully stiffen them up. The bowtie pockets in the rails will be cut to fit the specific brackets so the assembly will be fairly solid.
You may also notice that the bracket follows the shape of the wooden cap as well, (kinda
). One short coming of the wood stock I used for the caps was it fell ever so slightly short on the width. Meaning the caps are about a 0.125" shorter in height than the rails. Before I pulled the trigger on going down the wooden cap path, I sorted out the plan for the brackets, and a part of the design was to use them to make up that 0.125" gap at the bottom. I realize some will have a varying opinion on this, but I like the notion of some shiney metal highlights. In the end, if I like the polished metal band at the pocket it will remain, and potentially continue around the table. Otherwise I'll just black them out, and they'll not be noticed.The only unfortunate part of this whole thing is the time of year. If it were the summer months, I'd cast these brackets in either aluminum or brass. Considering my impatience combined with the cold weather. I'll just mill them out of aluminum. I have a buddy with a CNC, but I can do it easy enough on my manual mill and it's been sitting idle for a while now.
Oh... just remembered that I may have some appropriately sized aluminum stock already. nice
That is a good thought.... The screws however will only serve as a means to fight against gravity and will not see any level of torque. Better chance of wearing out my cue's wavy joint.
Step one: figuring out how to shape the new 'caps' before having the brackets made.
My problem here was that the brackets are meant to end up being a 'design highlight'. That's fancy talk for "what can I do to make this look intentional, with what I have on hand"....lol.
At the end of this, the shape of the brackets need to follow the profile of the caps. I can't develop the brackets until I settle on the profile for the cap. How do I keep the cap in place without the bracket meant to hold it in place..? My plan..., use a patternmaker's trick.
Generally when developing a pattern for a split casting. The pattern (shape to be cast) is made as one piece but has two separate halves. To facilitate having a single piece that can be easily split once shaping is done. Patternmakers will glue a piece of paper between the two halves. Once the pattern is complete, the pattern can be split with a knife. The paper/glue is strong enough to hold everything together while developing the patterns, but it fibers can be torn apart to release the sections.
I decided to use such a method to hold the blanks in position so I could roughly shape them. The point was to allow me the freedom to experiment without burning machine time altering metal brackets. So, I grabbed what I had on hand. Which amounted to some 3M spray adhesive and some gift bag tissue paper. The 3M spray has some minor balls, but nothing too major. The tissue paper was the thinest thing I had available. Thicker paper may actually be easier for me to separate when I'm done, but I wanted the cap to mate back up as closely as possible when the time comes.
Basically the steps went:
So hopefully when the time comes, I'll be able to knock the 'caps' out by breaking the paper substrate. I was a little surprised at the holding power of the paper/spray glue combo. I did test it somewhat to see if it would suit my purposes. That said, I didn't push my luck beyond what I thought I may need to keep them held fast.
I had thought about 'saving some time' and sawing off the bulk of the unwanted material. However it dawned on me the belt sander with appropriate paper should make relatively short work of it.
Paired with the little shop vaccum it didn't spray much fine dust. Heavy stuff did land on the floor, but all in all the speed vs mess ratio was perfectly fine by my standards. After roughing it down with the belt sander and then swapping in a little palm 'mouse' sander I had this in about <60mins worth of effort.
I could have cut that time down a good deal if I felt brave with the belt sander. It honestly wasn't worth the risk imo. So I took more time creeping up on what you see above than I could have.
My problem here was that the brackets are meant to end up being a 'design highlight'. That's fancy talk for "what can I do to make this look intentional, with what I have on hand"....lol.
At the end of this, the shape of the brackets need to follow the profile of the caps. I can't develop the brackets until I settle on the profile for the cap. How do I keep the cap in place without the bracket meant to hold it in place..? My plan..., use a patternmaker's trick.
Generally when developing a pattern for a split casting. The pattern (shape to be cast) is made as one piece but has two separate halves. To facilitate having a single piece that can be easily split once shaping is done. Patternmakers will glue a piece of paper between the two halves. Once the pattern is complete, the pattern can be split with a knife. The paper/glue is strong enough to hold everything together while developing the patterns, but it fibers can be torn apart to release the sections.
I decided to use such a method to hold the blanks in position so I could roughly shape them. The point was to allow me the freedom to experiment without burning machine time altering metal brackets. So, I grabbed what I had on hand. Which amounted to some 3M spray adhesive and some gift bag tissue paper. The 3M spray has some minor balls, but nothing too major. The tissue paper was the thinest thing I had available. Thicker paper may actually be easier for me to separate when I'm done, but I wanted the cap to mate back up as closely as possible when the time comes.
Basically the steps went:
- spray one side of paper
- press flatly onto blank
- spray opposite side of paper
- press into opening
So hopefully when the time comes, I'll be able to knock the 'caps' out by breaking the paper substrate. I was a little surprised at the holding power of the paper/spray glue combo. I did test it somewhat to see if it would suit my purposes. That said, I didn't push my luck beyond what I thought I may need to keep them held fast.
I had thought about 'saving some time' and sawing off the bulk of the unwanted material. However it dawned on me the belt sander with appropriate paper should make relatively short work of it.
Paired with the little shop vaccum it didn't spray much fine dust. Heavy stuff did land on the floor, but all in all the speed vs mess ratio was perfectly fine by my standards. After roughing it down with the belt sander and then swapping in a little palm 'mouse' sander I had this in about <60mins worth of effort.
I could have cut that time down a good deal if I felt brave with the belt sander. It honestly wasn't worth the risk imo. So I took more time creeping up on what you see above than I could have.
MamboFats
Active member
Loving it ...
It looks magnificent.
Was thinking of a similar way in my own table design.
Keep up the good work!
So I thought I'd break this into a separate post. Here's a photo of the void I intend to fill with my soon to be bracket.
You're looking at about 3/16". I don't have an exact number, and I don't intend on chasing one. The goal is to make a bracket at a thickness that will cover all four corners and reshape the wood to match.
The view from the underside may shed some light on the future bracket design with incorporated wings.
There is a routered groove for the original apron. That may or may not remain. It will change at the corners regardless, so I'm indifferent about it as it applies to the bracket.
You're looking at about 3/16". I don't have an exact number, and I don't intend on chasing one. The goal is to make a bracket at a thickness that will cover all four corners and reshape the wood to match.
The view from the underside may shed some light on the future bracket design with incorporated wings.
There is a routered groove for the original apron. That may or may not remain. It will change at the corners regardless, so I'm indifferent about it as it applies to the bracket.
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Thanks for the kind words....
I would love to take some level of credit for the corners. Truth is.... It's born of available materials and Diamond's design.
MamboFats
Active member
T
That's my inspiration too ... Diamond Pool Tables
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan...lol. More of Gold Crown kind of guy.
If the current climate was different I'd be going down the road of some level of casting. That may even still be a consideration the next time the line items on the honey do list starts to shrink. There's a special place in my heart for fixing things that don't require it. You may wonder why I'm mimicking their design. Truth is, it's the easiest path at the moment.
However you can't argue with Diamond's approach on some things. Like the slate leveling system. On aesthetics, meh... Not bad, not great... To each their own.
MamboFats
Active member
I never played on a Gold Crown until about 2000 ... I started playing pool in '96 on a Diamond table ...
First love never dies ...
I never understood why Diamond makes a big, wide, flat rail, why not curve it down for more hand clearance similar to a Gold Crown? I like Diamonds compared to Valley's but prefer Gold Crowns over Diamonds, especially hate the way Diamonds bank, especially if back cutting a bank.
Not a fan either.... I'm sure some will try and attribute some of level of design enchanced playability.
That said, the consistent wide rail of the Diamond is light years better than those Brunswicks that had that flared width along the long rail. At least I think they're a Brunswick model
Edit: Whatever this model is called....
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