Bring Back Hustling Culture

Minnesota Phat said:
I've only recently gotten serious about pool, and my experiences playing against anyone who will play me suggest to me that there's a real need for a niche between league play, tournaments, and casual games.
It seems like "hustling" is at the center of a lot of the romance and mystique of the game of pool. "Hustling" is not really the right word for what I'm talking about - Earl Strickland claimed that he wasn't a hustler, despite winning a lot of money on staked games - so by "hustling" I just mean wagering money on one's own skill.
The most famous pool movies are all about hustling, aren't they? The story of Earl Strickland from the Sky Sports documentary about his life is much more interesting than the stories of players who played a lot in grandpa's basement, joined a league, and then moved on to tournaments.
Tournaments, leagues, and casual play are all cool, but tournaments tend to be stuffy, leagues can sometimes be a bit cliquish, and casual players can sometimes be really annoying.
I go to some billiards halls here in Minnesota, and if anyone is placing stakes on games, it's extremely low-key, because I haven't seen it happen at all. Bar players will sometimes put some money down at bars, but not much, and I haven't found any bar where there's a culture of "betting" on games.
I think it would be really cool to see a table with a bunch of money on it, and a one-on-one game with more riding on the outcome than ego alone. As a novice player, I'd throw down a fiver here and there just for the opportunity to play someone who has dedicated himself or herself to mastering the game, and it would be thrilling if I actually won every once in awhile (which does happen sometimes - LOL). Playing anyone serious at a bar table typically costs at least $10/hour anyway, and hiring a coach is expensive as well - it's probably more expensive to be trained than by a coach than to be schooled by a hustler, if you keep the stakes low.
I think the decline of American talent in billiards is directly related to the decline of hustling culture in the USA - the incentive to master the game isn't what it once was, because being great at pool is no longer a ticket to a reasonably lucrative payday. Meanwhile, the Philippines has produced great players who came out of the hustling culture of that country, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
For a billiards hall to do it right, there would have to be clear, strict house rules for etiquette and the rules of the game, someone available to referee, and someone who could act as a bouncer, if needed. In some areas, there would need to be lobbying to change the laws to allow "betting" on pool. It would also be good to have certain "money" pool tables where seating is available nearby for interested onlookers to spectate - I think there are tons of people who would be interested in having a drink or a meal and watching top-level "hustlers" compete in money games.
While I personally dislike gambling, except for "betting" on oneself, the popularity of pool with the general public would likely skyrocket if spectators were also allowed to bet on games.
If there was a culture of hustling at pool halls, it would make playing for stakes much safer for all involved. A setup like the one I'm suggesting would likely evolve into great players playing against one another, but road players would show up sometimes, and every once in awhile some average player would get the courage to jump in for a game or two, and most likely lose, but maybe win (everybody gets lucky sometimes).
I think there are a lot of players who would at least put down five or ten bucks on a game, if the rules were clear and security was available - a quick glance at the cues being used at any billiards hall tells me that a lot of people are willing to spend a lot of money on upping their game. I've played quite a few excellent players who told me that the reason they don't "bet" on games is because they don't want to be involved in violent confrontations with hot-headed losers. I'd be willing to bet that if you eliminated the threat of violence or being robbed, and provided a referee to obviate arguments, you'd attract a lot of great players to money games, and then a culture of "hustling" would evolve that would increase the popularity of billiards halls and promote billiards in general.
Moral objections to "pool hustling" seem silly to me. If someone wants to put money down against me, I'd be an idiot to think that they're not trying to win money from me. Cheating is different, of course, and everyone should oppose cheating, but the art of the hustle is fair enough - if you think you have someone pegged as an inferior player, and you put money on that, then you're trying to hustle that person, and it's hustler vs. hustler, which is fair and square. If you're such a gullible rube that you honestly think a guy who is playing poorly suddenly wants to bet $100 out of sheer stupidity, you could probably use a reality check anyway, and it's not like you're being an angel yourself, if you're happy to skin someone who you think is stupid or drunk in the belief that you have a big advantage over him.
I'd also love to see more youth leagues, non-alcoholic leagues, family-friendly places to play pool, etc., but it's not a zero-sum game, and I think the soul of pool in America could be revitalized if a culture of "hustling" made a comeback in the USA.
Almost all current pool tournaments are basically stakes games anyway, and gambling is common in most areas of the country. Is it better for people to mindlessly open pull-tabs, fill out BINGO cards, push buttons on slot machines, or scratch off lottery tickets? Betting on pool is much more interesting on almost every level. Heck, betting on pool is even more environmentally-friendly than most other forms of gambling.
On technical issues, I would probably set up any betting system in a way that gives the state a bite in the form of sales taxes, donations to government organizations like first responders, or whatever. Otherwise I think there's a risk that Big Brother could get pissed off about small businesses competing with their gambling rackets (especially the state lottery), since the government likes to fleece citizens as much as they can get away with, and the house always wins. One clever move might be to convert 5% of overall winnings into lottery tickets when people cash out.
Willie Mosconi is great and all, but many of us would rather watch the ghost of Minnesota Fats practice the art of hustling than watch the ghost of Willie Mosconi silently clear racks in straight pool like a "true gentleman." Besides, Willie would probably never play any of us mere mortals, except maybe if we put some money on the table.
Click to expand...
It depends on your local culture. After league games there are often a few guys playing sets, usually $20 for a race to 5 9 ball. Sometimes they do this for $5 or $10 depending. I've also seen some of the better players play each other and good out of towners for $100 for a race to 11.

This is in Iowa, I'm told that down south they like to gamble on pool much more. Even if not for high stakes they will usually gamble for drinks. Free table time also encourages gambling and sells more food/drinks.
 
rexus31 said:
While the film industry has been responsible for "booms" in pool's popularity amongst the general public, it hasn't done pool any favors in terms of the professional side of the sport looking to attract mainstream sponsorship with real money to elevate the game. Hence, my statement the "hustler" image has done more harm than good.
Click to expand...
I'm not a pro. Why should I care if there is mainstream sponsorship with real money to elevate the game? Should I care if a pro makes money? I do not aspire to be a pro, nor a mark to fund companies. As long as we have pool related products to buy that's literally all the input I need from companies and sponsors. Name any large pool sponsor. What have they done personally for me besides us it as advertising budget to get me to buy their products?

Large sponsored tournaments are a con game. The house/LO/organizations makes BANK. They make bank on food, drinks, $6 cans of beer, etc. Then they pay out a small portion. Just enough to get bites, but no more. Not even enough to cover hotel rooms. Isn't it better to gamble among ourselves or play local tournaments and not pay the middlemen? If an establishment where the tourney takes their cut and makes money, that's fine. Most of them paid for their equipment anyway, they deserve to make it back.

Tournaments are fun, but I'm pretty much fed up with them. I'm dead money, but I could take the same $25 entry fee and beat half of the players in a tournament on a race to 5. Why not double my money on a set instead of pay my money with no return and spend a minimum of $25 on food and drinks each day and tie up an entire weekend? You don't need a hotel room to play a couple sets. It's not tenable for an average player.

So for an average player, how exactly can mainstream sponsorship elevate the game for me?
 
I have written about this several times, but . . . My town is a gambling town -- bone deep, everything in one's pocket, gambling -- for many, many years. One local boat captain gambled and lost his shrimpboat -- his livelihood -- on a single roll of the dice. He is still celebrated here for his amount of game. After the feds shut down the West Biloxi Strip in the mid-sixties, so many of our professional gamblers moved to Las Vegas that there was, may still be, an area of Vegas called "Little Biloxi".

Pool was just another way to gamble and many gamblers learned to shoot pool just to have another way to get in action -- pool action was everywhere around you in a pool hall. Playing in such an environment does something to you and for you. It is addictive. Those who experienced similar environments know exactly what I am talking about. Those of you whose only experience is indirect may have an idea, but there is so much more to it that you can never know.
 
Last edited:
buckshotshoey said:
You obviously dont understand hustling. Hustling isnt just about gambling. Hustling is hiding your true ability, and winning just barely enough so your opponent wants to play again and again.

Earl Strickland never tried to hide his ability (that im aware of), so he wasnt a hustler. He would just kick your ass as hard as he could.
Click to expand...
Respectfully That‘s a con, not a hustle. I made a post on the subtle differences a couple days ago.

3 card monte is a con.
 
Last edited:
pool rooms seemed to start closing when the new breed that didnt gamble started being the regular but infrequent customers.

they did fine when there were hustlers, gamblers and people in the rooms every day to watch and partake in the action.

pool rooms were social places and when the new anti social entitled kids grew up enough to play pool they didnt fill the rooms.
 
justnum said:
Make a documentary about Fedor. Build public support for him and then have EU deal with appeals to sanction.

There are good people in many countries. Fedor is proven.
Click to expand...
Fedor needs to find a USA citizen to marry...
 
David in FL said:
Come to my local room, and I can find you a game for pretty much anything that you‘d like. Eight ball, nine ball, ten ball, banks, one pocket…

From cheap sets to just about as interesting as you would like to make it…
Click to expand...
Florida has the best scene in the country.
 
boogieman said:
I'm not a pro. Why should I care if there is mainstream sponsorship with real money to elevate the game? Should I care if a pro makes money? I do not aspire to be a pro, nor a mark to fund companies. As long as we have pool related products to buy that's literally all the input I need from companies and sponsors. Name any large pool sponsor. What have they done personally for me besides us it as advertising budget to get me to buy their products?

Large sponsored tournaments are a con game. The house/LO/organizations makes BANK. They make bank on food, drinks, $6 cans of beer, etc. Then they pay out a small portion. Just enough to get bites, but no more. Not even enough to cover hotel rooms. Isn't it better to gamble among ourselves or play local tournaments and not pay the middlemen? If an establishment where the tourney takes their cut and makes money, that's fine. Most of them paid for their equipment anyway, they deserve to make it back.

Tournaments are fun, but I'm pretty much fed up with them. I'm dead money, but I could take the same $25 entry fee and beat half of the players in a tournament on a race to 5. Why not double my money on a set instead of pay my money with no return and spend a minimum of $25 on food and drinks each day and tie up an entire weekend? You don't need a hotel room to play a couple sets. It's not tenable for an average player.

So for an average player, how exactly can mainstream sponsorship elevate the game for me?
Click to expand...
So you are of the opinion if real (non pool related) sponsorship money existed (auto makers, tech companies, etc.) and top professional tournaments paid seven figures it wouldn't trickle down and increase the popularity and interest of the game thus elevating it even further? That it wouldn't persuade parents to put a pool cue in their child's hand instead of a bat, racket or club, thus elevating the entire industry by increasing equipment sales and all things pool?

Why do kids get involved in sports? Mostly parental and media influence but what gets them continuing to play into and past the high school level? Love of the game, sure but the allure of the potential to earn BIG money playing a game. It'd be great if the game we all love fit into this category.

The long answer is it isn't about the individual playing $25 sets, it's about a much bigger picture.
 
I've written about hustling before. I think it sucks, and I'll elaborate on why.

Many pool halls have a card game going, sometimes it 's kind of an open secret, if that kind of thing is illegal. This is usually where the hustlers hang out, playing cards. You'll rarely find the hustler at the pool table, he only goes there to trick newbies into playing. Often the hustler actually does not even like pool at all. He plays only for the love of money and hatred of work. He'll also do anything humanly possible to avoid spending money. The hustler is cheap, the cheapest person in a poolroom full of cheapskates. The hustler never touches anyone who can beat him. Once you get half decent, they usually shy away, like you're radioactive. These are the players who whine about anyone who quits winner, lol. They'll happily try to fleece you as you're coming up the ranks, once you're a player, they won't let you win anything back. The hustler will not play any normal games. Usually he'll play games of his own invention or strange variations designed to play to his strengths. He still won't play anyone half decent. If you can run a rack, he'll ask for the world, the rainbow crush, the end rail. He'll then go on a tirade about nits.

The hustler thinks he's smarter than anybody. He thinks he's the greatest player ever. The hustler, however, rarely have any decent winnings of which to boast. The hustler thinks tournaments are beneath him, yet would get murdered at any open event. In handicap events he'll beg, scream and cry to get a better handicap. This is definetly not beneath him.

My poolhall had a black book in which betting debts were written down. I remember one time the debts were settled and everyone broke even or very nearly so, lol. All that nittiness, locksmithing, sharking and that's what it all came down to. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic. Keep in mind that a lot of damage and losses to the poolhall was incurred in this time, through their scheming. The gains they had were not even a fraction of a percent of the damage done to the reputation of the room and the income. It's the most expensive and wasteful occupation to have in your place. You could hire a dozen plumbers who only use parts made of solid gold, and it still might be cheaper in the long run.

The hustlers are actively fighting recruitment to the pool ranks. All the hard work done by people running leagues, organizing corporate events, having open nights, ladies nights etc. usually only give a few enthusiastic recruits. One bad experience with a hustler can nullify all that hard work by cutting down the few people you might have gotten started. The hustler is a parasite, a disease on the sport. Like a parasite it feeds off others hard work, while dragging the host down. Like parasites, they do not feed on the strong. They feed on the people who are gullible, simple and not that good at pool. They consider that honorable and great. If a Downs syndrome school class came to play, they'd fleece them all if they could.

Yes the hustler has a "romantic" appeal, like the highway man or the bank robber. He's mysterious and dark, maybe even exotic for many working people. But what is he in his natural habitat, what does he do to the people he meets? What does he give back to the people who sustain him, in his very meager career? He's the equivalent of a trained fighter in a karate dojo sucker punching everyone new coming in the door. A few people might stick around to learn how to give him his comeuppance, most will just leave. I don't see anything remotely romantic or desirable with behaviour like that. It won't "toughen" people up. It will just piss them off.
 
Last edited:
Straightpool_99 said:
I've written about hustling before. I think it sucks, and I'll elaborate on why.

Many pool halls have a card game going, sometimes it 's kind of an open secret, if that kind of thing is illegal. This is usually where the hustlers hang out, playing cards. You'll rarely find the hustler at the pool table, he only goes there to trick newbies into playing. Often the hustler actually do not even like pool at all. They play only for the love of money and hatred of work. He'll also do anything humanly possible to avoid spending money. The hustler is cheap, the cheapest person in a poolroom full of cheapskates. The hustler never touches anyone who can beat him. Once you get half decent, they usually shy away, like you're radioactive. These are the players who whine about anyone who quits winner, lol. They'll happily try to fleece you as you're coming up the ranks, once you're a player, they won't let you win anything back. The hustler will not play any normal games. Usually he'll play games of his own invention or strange variations designed to play to his strengths. He still won't play anyone half decent. If you can run a rack, he'll ask for the world, the rainbow crush, the end rail. He'll then go on a tirade about nits.

The hustler thinks he's smarter than anybody. He thinks he's the greatest player ever. The hustler, however, rarely have any decent winnings of which to boast. The hustler thinks tournaments are beneath him, yet would get murdered at any open event. In handicap events he'll beg, scream and cry to get a better handicap. This is definetly not beneath him.

My poolhall had a black book in which betting debts were written down. I remember one time the debts were settled and everyone broke even or very nearly so, lol. All that nittiness, locksmithing, sharking and that's what it all came down to. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic. Keep in mind that a lot of damage and losses to the poolhall was incurred in this time, through their scheming. The gains they had were not even a fraction of a percent of the damage done to the reputation of the room and the income. It's the most expensive and wasteful occupation to have in your place. You could hire a dozen plumbers who only use parts made of solid gold, and it still might be cheaper in the long run.

The hustlers are actively fighting recruitment to the pool ranks. All the hard work done by people running leagues, organizing corporate events, having open nights, ladies nights etc. usually only give a few enthusiastic recruits. One bad experience with a hustler can nullify all that hard work by cutting down the few people you might have gotten started. The hustler is a parasite, a disease on the sport. Like a parasite it feeds off others hard work, while dragging the host down. Like parasites, they do not feed on the strong. They feed on the people who are gullible, simple and not that good at pool. They consider that honorable and great. If a Downs syndrome school class came to play, they'd fleece them all if they could.

Yes the hustler has a "romantic" appeal, like the highway man or the bank robber. He's mysterious and dark, maybe even exotic for many working people. But what is he in his natural habitat, what does he do to the people he meets? What does he give back to the people who sustain him, in his very meager career? He's the equivalent of a trained fighter in a karate dojo sucker punching everyone new coming in the door. A few people might stick around to learn how to give him his comeuppance, most will just leave. I don't see anything remotely romantic or desirable with behaviour like that. It won't "toughen" people up. It will just piss them off.
Click to expand...
Tell us how you REALLY feel! 😏
 
buckshotshoey said:
Tell us how you REALLY feel! 😏
Click to expand...
You might not believe it, but I have nothing against gambling or matching up, so long as it is done discretely if the pool hall needs it to be. I’ve done it plenty of times myself and have not ben victimized by the hustlers myself, though as you can imagine I’ve seen quite a bit of it. It’s the lowlife hustling that I hate with a passion.
 
and i bet you go knocking games and putting your own values on everything and everybody that you do not agree with.
 
Some of the criticism is earned. Part of the problem is Hollywood. They took much of the worst about pool and brought it into mainstream view. Like it or not.... and I DONT... many people seem to mix reality with fantasy based on what they see in movies or television.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top