The 9ball championships and winner break excitement.
- Thread starter smoochie
- Start date
The only good thing about winner break, if there is one, is that it allows come back as we have seen repeatedly in this tournament that provides for good entertainment. As Shane said repeatedly on Pool Player Podcast yesterday, it's never over until it's over in a winner break format. However, imo, a winner break format can be pretty boring if the loser had very few chances at the table (or none) in a match, where the winner is always getting a shot after the break. In such a match, it's the break that won because most professionals run out after getting a shot on the lowest ball unless there are many clusters which rarely happens in professional rotation pool.
Hey guys, listen I've said this before and I'm going to say it again. 9ball is an offensive game and it should ALWAYS be a winner break game. The alternative break nonsense must go immediately, we are in trouble as is with the peeps saying that pool is boring, adding an alternative break to it makes it even ultra-boring. So please, in rotation games let's always keep them a winner break matches!
We saw today that even if a guy is down 9-1 he still could come back due to winner break which adds a lot of excitement into the game... i.e. you don't give up ever!!! which is nice. Even as a gambler you'd still be excited about watching your horse even if he's down a few or even lots of games!! rotation games like 9ball should always be winner break because of this simple fact, ppl never give up and always feel they could do some damage when they're at the table... 5 pack, 6 pack, etc.
Listen I do understand the alternative break but it should be ONLY for 1pocket and maybe 8ball....but don't let the rotation games be boring by making an alternative break, if you do this and one player is 7-2 ahead in a race to 9, you could literally forget it! the guy with some bad rolls who has a score of 2 will instantly give up, it's so boring and unfair.
I just wanted to emphasize here to whoever is responsible for the tournament play!! keep this in your mind! 9ball is an offensive game and always will be. The alternative break doesn't work in offensive games and only makes them boring...well unless it's for Mosconi because it's a race of 5,, maybe a race of 5 is fine? I dunno it's debatable. Maybe even a race to 5 a winner break would still be better? I'm gonna have to think about it.
You could lose 5 to zero in a winner break 9ball match, but yea maybe it's still exciting? I don't know maybe it is. Yea the hell with alternative break is all what I'm trying to say
They have been fiddling with rules and games for decades trying to find a formula to get pool into the mainstream again like it was 30 years ago. Nothing done to the actual game or rules is going to help, it's all been tried, and nothing worked. The only thing that will work to get pool into the same mindset of people as poker or even bowling is media and advertising, just like everything else that is popular. Alternate break vs winner break will be something that is not likely to be settled anytime soon, because there are advantages and drawbacks to either format and neither one of them is clearly better. For every plus in both formats there is an equal minus. Like to see a big run, not fair to the other player as he never has a chance to play, like to see a big comeback in alternate break, not as easy to do. I think alternate break is the more fair to both players, they both get a chance at the table no matter what. No being up 9-3 in a race to 11 then losing 11-10 because the other guy ran 5 on you, if you look at it from a neutral way, the player that got up, with a fair alternate break format where both players shoot, should they not be rewarded for that lead in such a format? The other players has the same break chance to win the game after all. It comes down to what is fair for the tournament and what people not involved want to see. Everyone wants to watch car crash videos, but it's not as much fun for the people involved in the actual crash.
No body wants to come to a tournament and not get a chance to play!!! Who wants to spend $1500.00 to come to a tournament and never shoot? So You go to a tournament and you play the Ko brothers back to back, or Earl and Busty, SVB and Alex?
Alternate break means you'll a least come to the table, from there its up to you.
Alternate break means you'll a least come to the table, from there its up to you.
Yeah exactly.
"I'm shooting Fast Eddie, when I miss you can shoot." That's how pool works and has always worked. You sit in the chair until the other guy fails to run out. Sometimes, it's not a long wait, and sometimes it is.
As for all these matches where one guy doesn't get to shoot, I've been attending tournaments for the entire length of the nine-ball era, and I've never seen one of them. The number of times I've been present for anything more than a four-pack is very small, few enough to count on the fingers of my hand.
Finally, the answer to the question "who wants to spend the money to play in tournaments when they might not even have a chance to win" is that there is a super-abundance of such players, which is why Matchroom sold out the 256-player UK Open in just one hour.
Alternate break became necessary when rack mechanics were very numerous and when players were racking. Referees are now racking the balls in the late rounds of every single major event, so the problem no longer exists in major tournament play.
Let's be honest, "everyone should have a chance to shoot" has never been the credo of pool and I hope it never will be.
As for all these matches where one guy doesn't get to shoot, I've been attending tournaments for the entire length of the nine-ball era, and I've never seen one of them. The number of times I've been present for anything more than a four-pack is very small, few enough to count on the fingers of my hand.
Finally, the answer to the question "who wants to spend the money to play in tournaments when they might not even have a chance to win" is that there is a super-abundance of such players, which is why Matchroom sold out the 256-player UK Open in just one hour.
Alternate break became necessary when rack mechanics were very numerous and when players were racking. Referees are now racking the balls in the late rounds of every single major event, so the problem no longer exists in major tournament play.
Let's be honest, "everyone should have a chance to shoot" has never been the credo of pool and I hope it never will be.
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Great for you, but I've going to tournaments for 45 years and I've seen plenty of guys that play real sporty go two and out and as far as small packages go, it doesn't matter how small it is. If you come to the table after a three of four pack and you have to kick, respond to a roll out, play out of a safety then you better be a fast starter after all that sitting or you better be really lucky.
Darts, table tennis, bowling and even the pathetic game of cornhole gives the incoming player a shot at the money. The play is to strong now and the fields are to tough to play anyway other than alternate break.
And the fans want to see their favorite players come to the table as well, not sit and watch the game the same ay they are watching.
Well said. Sometimes, the only chances one gets are tough chances, and some good players don't always have enough good looks at the table to win.
Still, I can't say I want to say both players. If one of them is skillful enough to deny the other a realistic shot at winning, I tip my cap to them for good play.
So players that aren't able to shoot well after sitting for a few racks is the reason we need alternate break?
Every match I've watched so far of the World Pool Championship, each player has had their opportunities. No one has kept their opponent in their chair and run out the set.
Sure, in a race to 7 or shorter, it should be probably be alternate break.
Then again, professional events really shouldn't be races to 7 or shorter.
Every match I've watched so far of the World Pool Championship, each player has had their opportunities. No one has kept their opponent in their chair and run out the set.
Sure, in a race to 7 or shorter, it should be probably be alternate break.
Then again, professional events really shouldn't be races to 7 or shorter.
Perhaps we should dispense with 14.1 and go back to plain ol’ continuous pool. Start with safety break every rack, now that will be fair to everyone.
You know, the more I think about this, the more I realize that we're both right. We have different things we prefer to see, but each of us knows what we want, and those that suggest that the rising skill level of today's cueists may call for an alternate break format more than in the past do have a point.
You always make a great point and there isn't anyone here that can refute your background as a watcher and fan of Pool.
I originally sided the other way but I think you've won me over. I do think that there needs to be some work done on lopsided
prize rewards and at some point the ones at the bottom may not get paid until they bring up their game as this would help more
of the players that worked to get where they are. Great post Stu. Its about 65/35 in favor of winner breaks so far and that shows where
the audience is on it.
I originally sided the other way but I think you've won me over. I do think that there needs to be some work done on lopsided
prize rewards and at some point the ones at the bottom may not get paid until they bring up their game as this would help more
of the players that worked to get where they are. Great post Stu. Its about 65/35 in favor of winner breaks so far and that shows where
the audience is on it.
The poll tells us preferences, not who is right. Those who argue for alternate break on the basis that it has been made more advisable because of the ever-increasing aptitude of today's top cueists relative to those of the past make their case well. That said, no theoretical argument that this is how sports work and have always worked will ever win this fan over. We do need to keep our eyes open as our sport continues to evolve and we may, one day, conclude that the day of "winner breaks" has passed. That said, as the curtain begins to close of the 2022 World Pool Championship, I think the winner breaks format has delivered electrifying theater and everybody has had their chances to succeed.
Yes, top-heavy prize fund payouts are, to me, a giant problem. Both the World 10-ball and the World Pool Championship had a field of 128. The World 10-ball paid out just $54,000 of the total prize fund to those finishing outside the top 8, just 24% of the prize fund. Contrastingly, the World Pool Championship paid $160,000 of its total prize fund to those finishing outside the top eight, about 49% of the total prize fund. As Darren Appleton observed when interviewed about the formation of the new players association, the guys running ten-ball don't seem to want anyone to make money unless they make a super-deep run, and this doesn't serve pro pool well.
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At the World Pool Championship, everyone finishing in the top half of the field cashed for $1,500 or more, so I think we got that.
Don't want to sit in your chair and watch your opponent run out the match? Learn to lag, kick, break and play a lock down safety game better. Didn't win the lag? You should of hit a better shot. You break and nothing went in? Learn to break better or buy another lucky rabbit's foot. You break and have no good shot? Lock your opponent in jail. Devastating safety. Frustrate him. Maybe you can be the guy running out. Elevate your game, don't bring the other's game down. Sounds fair to me.
Is it fair to the guy on a heater to park him in the chair because he's running too good and came in to the match better prepared?
Running racks is exciting to everyone except the guy in the chair. It creates a buzz in the crowd. Personalities come out. It's good for pool!
To see Earl, Efren, Varner, Siegel, Hall etc catch a gear and put a 5 pack on someone? Classic! I'll rewind and rewatch that time and time again. To see 2 sterilized robots exchange racks for a 10-11 win? No thank you very much.
Is it fair to the guy on a heater to park him in the chair because he's running too good and came in to the match better prepared?
Running racks is exciting to everyone except the guy in the chair. It creates a buzz in the crowd. Personalities come out. It's good for pool!
To see Earl, Efren, Varner, Siegel, Hall etc catch a gear and put a 5 pack on someone? Classic! I'll rewind and rewatch that time and time again. To see 2 sterilized robots exchange racks for a 10-11 win? No thank you very much.
Guy Manges
Registered
Stu I see what your saying, What I'm seeing and saying is for viewers, In 8 Ball I watch many games that go both ways. Especially for games as men against women, I see it more fair for both with alternate breaks. I guess its harder for viewers if the match being played, We are a fan of both players. So many of the games I watch I am a fan of one player and then I become a fan of the other ( New and younger player, I think in all our pool games mental is a well needed start. All my life in my rotation games I need a primer shot in my mind to get started. Even in 8 Ball I need this... thanks Guy