Carbon Fiber Shafts should be Banned

Texas Carom Club said:
its low percentage, i seen enough pool by now
few and far between with those situations
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Kicking is most definitely an art and you either have it or you don't. Please don't think this is arrogance but I would play anyone in a game of kicks. Clearly, most pro's would annihilate me but I have enjoyed the art of kicking and banking since I started playing pool and have become very proficient at them. When someone plays a safe on me it's very rare I give them BIH. And I say most pro's because I've seen more than my share of pro's making either bad decisions on kicks or simply missing easy kicks.
 
Chili Palmer said:
Kicking is most definitely an art and you either have it or you don't. Please don't think this is arrogance but I would play anyone in a game of kicks. Clearly, most pro's would annihilate me but I have enjoyed the art of kicking and banking since I started playing pool and have become very proficient at them. When someone plays a safe on me it's very rare I give them BIH. And I say most pro's because I've seen more than my share of pro's making either bad decisions on kicks or simply missing easy kicks.
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id play you in a game of kicks(whatever that might be), or carom for that matter
i use every tool i can , would never say not to do this or that just cause i dont like it
i feel like i hardly give up bih when i kick, but still happens

ill jump if i feel i can make it, if not i can kick and hit it to
 
Texas Carom Club said:
id play you in a game of kicks(whatever that might be), or carom for that matter
i use every tool i can , would never say not to do this or that just cause i dont like it
i feel like i hardly give up bih when i kick, but still happens

ill jump if i feel i can make it, if not i can kick and hit it to
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If you ever get to Boise (or close to it, I like to travel) let me know. I was supposed to head to TX this June but I think that's canceled due to a family wedding in Michigan :confused:. If TX is still on I will PM you.
 
hang-the-9 said:
If they can jump with a full cue that is. A jump cue allows things totally out of the realm of normal cue physics and removes almost all skill from jumping a ball. One thing that we must not confuse is the jump shot and jump cue, the two are not equal in discussions. In my experience people that don't like jump cues feel they make the shot way easier than it was ever intended to be and makes mistakes and safes almost trivial to get out of and not the fact they don't know how to use one, because any C player can be shown how to jump a ball in 30 seconds with one. Blaming the ability to jump out of a safe on a "bad safe" is like blaming someone that was shot for not ducking fast enough, there are some logical and reasonable expectations of a shot to still be good vs freezing to another ball after going several rails and still blocking off kicking angles. One should not need superhuman speed and angle control on a table to counter equipment that a 12 yr old can learn to use in minutes.
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You’re confusing the ability to cause a cue ball to hop into the air with the ability to play a quality jump shot.

I can teach that same 12 year old how to hit a cue ball relatively straight in minutes too. But the fact that they can hit it relatively straight along an intended line doesn’t mean that they can hit much in the way of quality shots. They certainly aren’t expecting to pocket many balls, let alone get sheep after doing so.

A good jumper can draw, follow, swerve, etc… In short, do just about anything you can do with a normal shot.
 
David in FL said:
You’re confusing the ability to cause a cue ball to hop into the air with the ability to play a quality jump shot.

I can teach that same 12 year old how to hit a cue ball relatively straight in minutes too. But the fact that they can hit it relatively straight along an intended line doesn’t mean that they can hit much in the way of quality shots. They certainly aren’t expecting to pocket many balls, let alone get sheep after doing so.

A good jumper can draw, follow, swerve, etc… In short, do just about anything you can do with a normal shot.
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All you need to make a legal hit is basically hop over the ball. Making a ball and playing position after making the jump is bonus and is another thing. So let's say it takes 30 seconds to jump over a ball, it will take maybe 10 minutes to learn to aim a bit to pocket a hanger or a ball close to a pocket. Still makes it way too easy. The jump cue replaces skill with equipment far more than anything else we use in pool, it allows not just shots that are "hard" with a full cue but shots that would be impossible with a full cue or possible only for maybe 50 people on the planet that work for a hundred hours on it. Yes it takes work to get to be an expert with a jump cue past just hitting the ball, but that is not the point at all with the issue with a jump cue, just the easy ability to jump over a ball is more than enough to hurt the skill of the game.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
All you need to make a legal hit is basically hop over the ball. Making a ball and playing position after making the jump is bonus and is another thing. So let's say it takes 30 seconds to jump over a ball, it will take maybe 10 minutes to learn to aim a bit to pocket a hanger or a ball close to a pocket. Still makes it way too easy. The jump cue replaces skill with equipment far more than anything else we use in pool, it allows not just shots that are "hard" with a full cue but shots that would be impossible with a full cue or possible only for maybe 50 people on the planet that work for a hundred hours on it.
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Making a ball and playing position as the entire point of playing pool. I can teach the same 12-year-old to make that same hanger with a standard shot in one minute. That doesn’t mean he’s a competent poor player.

A jump cue doesn’t change the need to make quality shots. as with that 12 year old, you just may need to redefine what you consider to be a quality shot. Simply hitting your object ball doesn’t usually qualify. Moreover, if a safe is played properly and effectively, a jump cue isn’t any use whatsoever.

A jump cue is just another tool in the box. Take the time and practice to use one competently, or don’t. But don’t disparage those that can, simply because you cannot.
 
Black-Balled said:
Better start now.
Its easy...
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Been there done that but at some point I realized I just didn't care about the money and would rather just play for the fun of it. When I did gamble bar-box short rack banks was my favorite and that's the game I've probably won the most money on. I don't even play competitively anymore and only have people over to the house to play on occasion.

If you ever get to Boise I'd be happy have you over so you can show me a few things ;)
 
David in FL said:
Making a ball and playing position as the entire point of playing pool. I can teach the same 12-year-old to make that same hanger with a standard shot in one minute. That doesn’t mean he’s a competent poor player.

A jump cue doesn’t change the need to make quality shots. as with that 12 year old, you just may need to redefine what you consider to be a quality shot. Simply hitting your object ball doesn’t usually qualify. Moreover, if a safe is played properly and effectively, a jump cue isn’t any use whatsoever.

A jump cue is just another tool in the box. Take the time and practice to use one competently, or don’t. But don’t disparage those that can, simply because you cannot.
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When did anyone talk about not liking one because of not being able to use it? The whole point is that they are too easy to use. How about the fact that in every single pro interview not once did I hear anyone say they liked having the jump cue in use? Those are players that certainly can use them, but they pretty much universally agree that if it went away they won't miss it. Why are there tournaments that don't allow jump cue use if they are so great? Jump with a playing cue or the full break cue is a rule in a good number of events, and whenever there are jump cues used in major events, there are always people talking how that should not be a thing, including the commentators. People complain about "easy" pockets and fast cloth but jump cues are OK?

How skilled you are with a jump cue is not in the discussion. They make jumping too easy, period. Nothing after that matters, the ability to run out after making the hit is a secondary thing. Getting out of a safe or making a hanger ball easily is the issue. The point is a jump cue takes way too much skill out of a jump shot. It's not even close to anything else we have in the game. A hard tip and a break cue shaft makes jumping easier than a playing cue, but to a much less a change than a short light jump cue. I'm all for jumping or even using a second full cue to jump with, but when it takes no skill to hop over a ball that a guy with 10 years of experience played safe on you with, that is a bit silly. There is 0 argument that can be made against that unless someone is just in favor of making the shot easy for their benefit when they hook themselves or get a safe played on them. Basically it's taking a gun to a knife fight, the equipment will overcome a larger amount of skill on the other side.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
When did anyone talk about not liking one because of not being able to use it? The whole point is that they are too easy to use. How about the fact that in every single pro interview not once did I hear anyone say they liked having the jump cue in use? Those are players that certainly can use them, but they pretty much universally agree that if it went away they won't miss it at all. And how skilled you are with a jump cue is not in the discussion at all. They make jumping too easy, period. Nothing after that matters, the ability to run out after making the hit is a secondary thing. Getting out of a safe or making a hanger ball easily is the issue. The point is a jump cue takes way too much skill out of a jump shot. It's not even close to anything else we have in the game. A hard tip and a break cue shaft makes jumping easier than a playing cue, but to a much less a change than a short light jump cue. I'm all for jumping or even using a second full cue to jump with, but when it takes no skill to hop over a ball that a guy with 10 years of experience played safe on you with, that is a bit silly. There is 0 argument that can be made against that unless someone is just in favor of making the shot easy for their benefit when they hook themselves or get a safe played on them.
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I don't really have a side in the jump cue debate, I can use one and can make balls frequently but only on certain shots. Most times, I would rather just kick.

With that said, I agree they take the skill out of hitting the ball but in my opinion, it's still harder to become even remotely proficient at jumping than it is kicking. Jumps can only be executed in certain situations (CB to close obstructing ball, OB is too close to the rail for fear of going off rail, etc. are no go's for me when jumping). And if you're not proficient enough at jumping then, IMHO, you have a better chance of leaving your opponent a shot afterwards.

I guess in short - there are more kick shots that are easier to execute than jump shots. If I'm playing in tourney with jump cues and one guy can't jump for shit then I encourage him to jump, if I'm playing a guy who can jump and he jumps and runs out then good for him because I didn't necessarily lose as much as he won - and that's a mental thing.

I used to not like them because of the same reasons you've said but that was before I bought one and learned how to use it and only then, did I realize it's not quite that simple. I know enough to execute the shots I'm confident with otherwise I will just kick. If I was playing competitively I would probably still practice with mine but now that I play at home I grab it once in a while and hit maybe 75% and make maybe 25%, but I also don't care so take more chance than normal.

It really is an "I don't care" thing and could take them or lose them, they're irrelevant to my game at this point, I just thought I would give my take.
 
Chili Palmer said:
I don't really have a side in the jump cue debate, I can use one and can make balls frequently but only on certain shots. Most times, I would rather just kick.

With that said, I agree they take the skill out of hitting the ball but in my opinion, it's still harder to become even remotely proficient at jumping than it is kicking. Jumps can only be executed in certain situations (CB to close obstructing ball, OB is too close to the rail for fear of going off rail, etc. are no go's for me when jumping). And if you're not proficient enough at jumping then, IMHO, you have a better chance of leaving your opponent a shot afterwards.

I guess in short - there are more kick shots that are easier to execute than jump shots. If I'm playing in tourney with jump cues and one guy can't jump for shit then I encourage him to jump, if I'm playing a guy who can jump and he jumps and runs out then good for him because I didn't necessarily lose as much as he won - and that's a mental thing.

I used to not like them because of the same reasons you've said but that was before I bought one and learned how to use it and only then, did I realize it's not quite that simple. I know enough to execute the shots I'm confident with otherwise I will just kick. If I was playing competitively I would probably still practice with mine but now that I play at home I grab it once in a while and hit maybe 75% and make maybe 25%, but I also don't care so take more chance than normal.

It really is an "I don't care" thing and could take them or lose them, they're irrelevant to my game at this point, I just thought I would give my take.
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How often have we seen this layout, say from a bad position play? The winning ball is by the pocket but the guy hooked himself behind the red ball, pulls out a jump cue he used 4 times before, hops over the ball, wins game (or even makes a good hit or it's another non-game winning ball). No skill needed past $60 to spend on a cue, no punishment for bad position play. This situation is a totally different setup if one has to kick if they can't clear the ball with a full cue, or the amount of skill needed to jump with a full cue. Yes jumping well with tough shots is as hard as kicking, but jumping just good enough to change the outcome of the game with a jump cue is trivial. That is the point I am making, good enough is good enough in most cases, some C/B level player does not need to make a table length jump with draw to beat another C/B player, just making a legal hit is a huge benefit or making an easy ball by a pocket. Not everyone is a 750 Fargo playing a 720 Fargo where you need much higher skill levels in everything to win a game, and even then one jump shot made with a jump cue that still makes it way easier than with a full cue can change the match. How many times has the US lost a Mosconi Cup match due to a jump cue? Many times. Would they have lost those games if the guy had to jump with a full cue? Maybe but much less likely. Heck, I swear half the games Albin wins at Mosconi has been with a jump cue or with a fluke when a missed ball still goes somewhere.
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