Jayson Shaw's 714 becomes 669?

[lfigueroa]

Nowhere in the rules or the equipment specifications is any "spot sticker" mentioned. It is not part of the game, according to the rules.

The foot spot is a single point without breadth. It is the intersection of the long string and the foot string. (See the definition in the rules, here: https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Definitions )

That having been said.... On tables with old cloth and for games with smash breaks like eight ball and nine ball, the foot spot often has a crater due to the head ball being repeatedly struck into the cloth on break shots. This often makes it hard to get a tight rack with a triangle. The head ball keeps rolling into the crater and away from the rest of the rack leaving a gap. The "right" way to fix that problem is to take off the sticker, fill the dent in the cloth very carefully with something, such as a glue/lint mixture, and put a new sticker on.

Instead of fixing the crater, the standard way to deal with the problem is to move the rack up the table a little so the head ball is tight. Often it ends up on the edge of the crater pressed back against the next two balls. But that is just a stop-gap measure and not in the rule book. Anyone who quotes such a rule might be referring to a tournament or event on old cloth where the TD said, "It's OK to push the rack forward a little to get it tight," but I have never seen a written rule allowing this.

I think the practice of pushing the rack forward tends to make the crater slowly walk up the table. I've seen tables where you had to rack a quarter-inch high.

I believe the crater also forms because guys are constantly tapping the head ball to get it to stay on the spot.

I’ve seen some old Brunswicks getting recovered and the crater underneath the cloth can be huge.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Technically Jayson DID NOT break the record live on camera. And Bobby didn't make the run freely available for everyone to watch as he insinuated that he would.

Just keeping it accurate.

Keeping it accurate — what a joke.

The run was streamed for free. The morning Jayson broke the record our FB stream went down late into the run and one of the techs pointed his camera at the monitor and continued to stream. Myself and numerous other fans watched Jayson break the record *live and for free.*

Lou Figueroa

 

[middleofnowhere]

I find all this very bizarre.

All of a sudden, the BCA wants to establish rules regarding a record that does not even pertain to pro competition. In my view, the BCA has never taken the matter of keeping pool's record books very seriously, but suddenly they are taking a very hard stance on Jayson's run, reducing it to 669.

Who has run the most consecutive racks of nine-ball? ten-ball? eight-ball? Who won the most consecutive fully sanctioned events in pro pool? Who won the most consecutive matches? Who won the most events in a calendar year? Who was the youngest player to win a sanctioned event? Who was the oldest? It's funny how many threads we've had over the years on subjects like these simply because nobody knows for sure, and that's because the BCA has never taken the matter of cataloguing the records in pool seriously. Let me add that I'm not complaining about that, but their sudden vigilance in arbitrarily applying what they deem the letter of the law to Shaw's run seems very odd given their case history.

Whether the all-ball-fouls rule should even be applied to an exhibition has never been established, but the BCA is applying it retroactively to Shaw's run. Some may think it appropriate, but others like me aren't so sure. Was Mosconi playing all-ball fouls when he set the world record? I've watched footage in which Mosconi and Balsis played an exhibition match in which they didn't play all-ball fouls, so nobody can claim that Willie always played all-ball fouls.

By my reckoning, the evidence for Shaw's run is much stronger than that which was accepted in the case of Mosconi's run. An affidavit is nice evidence, but I'd bet my last buck that some of those that signed the affidavit missed a few balls of the run because they took a bathroom or cigarette break. Does the affidavit claim that the run was made with all-ball fouls in effect? No, it doesn't.

Put me in the camp that believes that Shaw's run should have been recognized as 714.

If this is the beginning of an era in which the BCA will start to catalogue records in pool and will take that responsibility seriously, that's good news indeed, but there's not yet any evidence that this is what we should expect. The reduction of Shaw's run seems to be an isolated incident rather than the turning over of a new leaf by the BCA in which records will now be taken seriously.

Finally, I have omitted consideration of John Schmidt's record run simply because I don't know what procedures were followed by the BCA in validation of the run, which I have always believed, and will always believe, was legitimate.

I believe the BCA was asked to review it. I doubt they could care less one way or another. If you don't want their opinion then don't ask.

 

[kling&allen]

Keeping it accurate — what a joke.

The run was streamed for free. The morning Jayson broke the record our FB stream went down late into the run and one of the techs pointed his camera at the monitor and continued to stream. Myself and numerous other fans watched Jayson break the record *live and for free.*

Lou Figueroa

I watched the end of the run through sheer luck (had a free hour that morning). I thought Jayson was going to run 1000. There was a fun AZB thread with real-time posting as Jayson's numbers kept growing.

My understanding is the main FB feed went down as they have an 8 hour limit on livestream events?

 

[JB Cases]

I watched until 3:30 am, until the FB feed shut down.

It was streaming and videotaped but I had fell asleep and didn’t see it live but I was able to watch racks 31 to 51 at 9:00am. while it was still up on FB.

That was all free,& didn’t dissuade me from purchasing the DVD & memorabilia.

I understand, but for ACCURACY purposes the run was not and IS NOT freely available as Chamberlain loudly said it would be. They can sell the package all they want to and I bought one, but let's not get it twisted and claim that the run was free for public consumption all the way through nor is free now.

That was a central contention of the "opposition" that the "public" was not able to view this run live as it occurred like John's other videos. It was said that ALL attempts would be streamed live and available to the public for maximum transparency. However that was not the case here. So really we don't know if the run on the DVD has been "edited" or "doctored" in contrast to the live attempts that are publicly available. I think probably not but it's not like we can go back to the live stream recording that is time and date stamped to compare it.

 

[JB Cases]

I believe the crater also forms because guys are constantly tapping the head ball to get it to stay on the spot.

I’ve seen some old Brunswicks getting recovered and the crater underneath the cloth can be huge.

Lou Figueroa

The slate is not deformed by the ball being tapped into place. There is no "crater" (great use of a word by a Public Relations Propagandist) in the slate. The cloth fibers are what is flattened and causes the depressed area around the spot. I think you are LYING to try and make a point and that you have NEVER seen a slate with a depression at the spot area.

 

[JB Cases]

Keeping it accurate — what a joke.

The run was streamed for free. The morning Jayson broke the record our FB stream went down late into the run and one of the techs pointed his camera at the monitor and continued to stream. Myself and numerous other fans watched Jayson break the record *live and for free.*

Lou Figueroa

Lol, so put up the link to that video. So that we can see the full run through a recording of a monitor. Not the public's fault that you don't understand the limitations of the platform. You could have streamed it on youtube simultaneously which would have been SUPER easy for your "techs" but you didn't.

Yes, accuracy. You all want to nitpick everything about John's efforts but don't want criticism of yours.

 

[Straightpool_99]

The slate is not deformed by the ball being tapped into place. There is no "crater" (great use of a word by a Public Relations Propagandist) in the slate. The cloth fibers are what is flattened and causes the depressed area around the spot. I think you are LYING to try and make a point and that you have NEVER seen a slate with a depression at the spot area.

I'd not go so far as to say he's lying, but I've recovered about 100 tables, and none had even a dimple in the slate at the spot. I have rather strong doubts that it's even possible to get a crater there naturally, but could maybe happen some way I'm unaware of? I do know that slate can break down and get porous and brittle under certain conditions. Usually this happens first near the edges and will be more like flaking or delaminating, then the slate breaks or chunks break off. It can be glued back with epoxy, I think, though I have never performed this repair myself.

 

[JB Cases]

I'd not go so far as to say he's lying, but I've recovered about 100 tables, and none had even a dimple in the slate at the spot. I have rather strong doubts that it's even possible to get a crater there naturally, but could maybe happen some way I'm unaware of? I do know that slate can break down and get porous and brittle under certain conditions. Usually this happens first near the edges and will be more like flaking or delaminating, then the slate breaks or chunks break off. It can be glued back with epoxy, I think, though I have never performed this repair myself.

He is 100% lying in my opinion. He was literally barred from a place for being such a nit with the table mechanic, a person who could easily drill Lou in any game. Name withheld because the story was told to me in confidence. But a very strong player and table mechanic operating out of an ICONIC room in the midwest. Now Lou will read this and say I am not telling the truth. Doesn't matter, you know and I know that the likelihood of the spot area having a depression/dimple/crater is next to zero. Lou says he has seen it MULTIPLE times.

The guy is a sadistic liar and will twist ANYTHING to "win" a point. We know that chips and cracks can be repaired on slates. I have seen fully broken slates restored and used. But the "crater" claim is pure BS.

 

[lfigueroa]

I understand, but for ACCURACY purposes the run was not and IS NOT freely available as Chamberlain loudly said it would be. They can sell the package all they want to and I bought one, but let's not get it twisted and claim that the run was free for public consumption all the way through nor is free now.

That was a central contention of the "opposition" that the "public" was not able to view this run live as it occurred like John's other videos. It was said that ALL attempts would be streamed live and available to the public for maximum transparency. However that was not the case here. So really we don't know if the run on the DVD has been "edited" or "doctored" in contrast to the live attempts that are publicly available. I think probably not but it's not like we can go back to the live stream recording that is time and date stamped to compare it.

The run was streamed live and free : -)

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I'd not go so far as to say he's lying, but I've recovered about 100 tables, and none had even a dimple in the slate at the spot. I have rather strong doubts that it's even possible to get a crater there naturally, but could maybe happen some way I'm unaware of? I do know that slate can break down and get porous and brittle under certain conditions. Usually this happens first near the edges and will be more like flaking or delaminating, then the slate breaks or chunks break off. It can be glued back with epoxy, I think, though I have never performed this repair myself.

Seen it on old Brunswick slates that have a million miles on them.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

He is 100% lying in my opinion. He was literally barred from a place for being such a nit with the table mechanic, a person who could easily drill Lou in any game. Name withheld because the story was told to me in confidence. But a very strong player and table mechanic operating out of an ICONIC room in the midwest. Now Lou will read this and say I am not telling the truth. Doesn't matter, you know and I know that the likelihood of the spot area having a depression/dimple/crater is next to zero. Lou says he has seen it MULTIPLE times.

The guy is a sadistic liar and will twist ANYTHING to "win" a point. We know that chips and cracks can be repaired on slates. I have seen fully broken slates restored and used. But the "crater" claim is pure BS.

lol, the guy was a frisbee player and couldn’t play a lick of pool AND the tables played goofy, IMO.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

The slate is not deformed by the ball being tapped into place. There is no "crater" (great use of a word by a Public Relations Propagandist) in the slate. The cloth fibers are what is flattened and causes the depressed area around the spot. I think you are LYING to try and make a point and that you have NEVER seen a slate with a depression at the spot area.

Don’t really care what you think.

Lou Figueroa
never have

 

[lfigueroa]

Lol, so put up the link to that video. So that we can see the full run through a recording of a monitor. Not the public's fault that you don't understand the limitations of the platform. You could have streamed it on youtube simultaneously which would have been SUPER easy for your "techs" but you didn't.

Yes, accuracy. You all want to nitpick everything about John's efforts but don't want criticism of yours.

I wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire —search for it, what I said happened is there.

Lou Figueroa
someone is off
their meds

 

[DynoDan]

There is no ambiguity in where the balls are racked in 14.1 if the table is properly marked.

I agree. If a ‘crater’ exists in the footspot sticker (from breaking 8/9 ball), which prevents the head ball from being tight, then likely the rack outline may get drawn a bit higher than spec. If playing somewhere that prohibits drawing on the cloth, then the position of the successively racked balls gets much more arbitrary, and dependent on the spatial conception abilities of the racker.

 

[arnaldo]

The cloth fibers are what is flattened and causes the depressed area around the spot.

Watch as that depressed area we all know about, locks up a $500,000 win for Efren:

https://youtu.be/AHIPcSvsWJg?t=3609

As you'll hear the commentator point out, were it not for the anomalous cessation of the CB's rolling, Effy's CB would have been occluded from a direct shot at the game- (and tournament) winning eight ball.

Arnaldo ~ The perils (and promises) of crushed foot spot-region fibers don't get more glaringly illustrated than this bizarre, yet so fortuitous turn of fate. Needless to add, Rodney was likely Gone with the Wind anyway by this point, but Hall of Famer Rodney does have the chops to snatch an improbable victory when he needs to, under pressure. That "dimpled" region inarguably did him in, in this case.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Watch as that depressed area we all know about, locks up a $500,000 win for Efren:

https://youtu.be/AHIPcSvsWJg?t=3609

As you'll hear the commentator point out, were it not for the anomalous cessation of the CB's rolling, Effy's CB would have been occluded from a direct shot at the game- (and tournament) winning eight ball.

Arnaldo ~ The perils (and promises) of crushed foot spot-region fibers don't get more glaringly illustrated than this bizarre, yet so fortuitous turn of fate. Needless to add, Rodney was likely Gone with the Wind anyway by this point, but Hall of Famer Rodney does have the chops to snatch an improbable victory when he needs to, under pressure. That "dimpled" region inarguably did him in, in this case.

dont forget, he sharked the rod father in that match too

 

[JB Cases]

Watch as that depressed area we all know about, locks up a $500,000 win for Efren:

https://youtu.be/AHIPcSvsWJg?t=3609

As you'll hear the commentator point out, were it not for the anomalous cessation of the CB's rolling, Effy's CB would have been occluded from a direct shot at the game- (and tournament) winning eight ball.

Arnaldo ~ The perils (and promises) of crushed foot spot-region fibers don't get more glaringly illustrated than this bizarre, yet so fortuitous turn of fate. Needless to add, Rodney was likely Gone with the Wind anyway by this point, but Hall of Famer Rodney does have the chops to snatch an improbable victory when he needs to, under pressure. That "dimpled" region inarguably did him in, in this case.

It's NOT in the slate. That's my point.

 

[JB Cases]

Watch as that depressed area we all know about, locks up a $500,000 win for Efren:

https://youtu.be/AHIPcSvsWJg?t=3609

As you'll hear the commentator point out, were it not for the anomalous cessation of the CB's rolling, Effy's CB would have been occluded from a direct shot at the game- (and tournament) winning eight ball.

Arnaldo ~ The perils (and promises) of crushed foot spot-region fibers don't get more glaringly illustrated than this bizarre, yet so fortuitous turn of fate. Needless to add, Rodney was likely Gone with the Wind anyway by this point, but Hall of Famer Rodney does have the chops to snatch an improbable victory when he needs to, under pressure. That "dimpled" region inarguably did him in, in this case.

Also, IIRC they used the Sardo Rack which was augmented by tapping ALL of the balls into place to "train" the racking area. I don't think that the cueball stopped in the spot area.

You are absolutely right that dimples in the cloth affect the roll at very slow speeds.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Watch as that depressed area we all know about, locks up a $500,000 win for Efren:

https://youtu.be/AHIPcSvsWJg?t=3609

As you'll hear the commentator point out, were it not for the anomalous cessation of the CB's rolling, Effy's CB would have been occluded from a direct shot at the game- (and tournament) winning eight ball.

Arnaldo ~ The perils (and promises) of crushed foot spot-region fibers don't get more glaringly illustrated than this bizarre, yet so fortuitous turn of fate. Needless to add, Rodney was likely Gone with the Wind anyway by this point, but Hall of Famer Rodney does have the chops to snatch an improbable victory when he needs to, under pressure. That "dimpled" region inarguably did him in, in this case.

It also looks like some table roll made the CB head behind that 14?