The Biggest Flaw of APA's Handicapping
- Thread starter Woodshaft
- Start date
Sure you are.
Mr. Rack Runner.
Do you ever tire of hearing the whoosh of your hand patting yourself on the back?
Pool is a bomb. The biggest flaw with APA is "convenience marketing". People need 7 Elevens more than pool. Their market will always be casual recreationers.
As g-string said, the 23-point rule is really a way of getting existing members to recruit new members. As handicaps go up, teams split up and form new teams--and have to find new players. APA will never change that rule.
I disagree. The APA needs "good" pool players. As stated before, the APA benefits when folks improve (teams splitting due to the 23 rule). The fastest way to get new players/mediocre players to improve, is to be mentored by stronger players.
Maybe its just a difference of definitions between us as to what constitutes a player "not that good". We have several in our league between 650 and 700 FR. Folks that travel all over the southeast playing tourneys, and are invaluable when league night rolls around as far as coaching and instructing.
Quick, someone tell svb his favorite game isn't for "REAL" players
xX-Wizard-Xx
Well-known member
i quit APA after having to split a team i enjoyed playing with. Also APA isnt that great .....
APA handicaps geared towards beginners & amateurs. You're falling into a common misconception people have about SL 7 & SL 9. It doesn't represent pro speed, it simply means the handicap range tops out, and stops measuring once you get to the terminal handicap level.
Yep I've had to split my team a couple of times over the last 5 years. It sucks when you have a good group, but it is also fun to see someone taking over as a new captain and building their team...and then crushing them on the table.
xX-Wizard-Xx
Well-known member
yeah ... i went from a 4 to a 8 and a 9 in 9 ball in the course of a summer session ...Yep I've had to split my team a couple of times over the last 5 years. It sucks when you have a good group, but it is also fun to see someone taking over as a new captain and building their team...and then crushing them on the table.
This 100000%%%%% To me this is the biggest weakness of the APA handicap system. Players in my local league outright will tell you they don't mark D, esp when trying to just kick / hit a ball. They will even argue with you that its not a defensive shot, even after you show them the APA video. I don't know how to fix this part, but lower level players who keep score, really don't know how to recognize a defensive shot, but you just can't say only 5's and higher can keep score because its hard enough they way it is to get scorekeepers, esp on double jeopardy nights playing on 3 or 4 tables at a time.
For some reason, the defensive shot has some sort if stigma attached to it, like you're being penalized or getting points taken away for some reason.
Some APA league operators offer Super 30. Team skill limit of 30 instead of 23. This league product has no road to Nationals in Las Vegas, and only offered as a cash league.
A common issue I find is some people their their local APA experience, and assume it system wide. I played in 3 APA leagues, and my experiences varied. In my current APA league, they only play APA 8-ball mostly on bar boxes. Across the river, different league operator offers double jeopardy (8-ball and 9-ball) on 9 foot tables, and if I go into NJ, the league operator out there offers Masters (where everyone plays even), Singles and other APA league products.
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I only been doing this APA thing since 2019, but here is what I observed so far and things I think can make it better.
#1 -the handicap system pretty much works for people who don't intentionally try to game the system. However the there is too much range in the individual skill levels
#2 - The 23 SL number does cause teams to split, however I seen a lot of those higher ranked players just not come back and whole teams just go away.
#3- Lower skilled players are too valuable to teams, this causes teams trying to steal players and creates animosity throughout the league.
#4- The nights are too long, A lot of players quit after their 1st session or cut back on the nights they play because they have to work in the morning.
#5- The scoring app is an absolute disaster, it constantly crashes and freezes up, the GUI is good, but the system back end needs a LOT of work.
My idea to help fix some of this stuff is to expand the handicap system and tweak it a little bit, esp with the APP now available to help do the math to figure out the races. I would do away with individual skill levels for 8 ball and 9 ball. Sure you might be a bit better at one than the other, but for the most part we are all amateurs, and most peoples skill levels are already fairly close already, so just do away with it.
Expand the handicap system to a skill level of 0 to 10 to help balance out the races and give everyone a chance to win on most nights and give a truer picture of someones skill level.
Next you need to come up with a way to get the number of races for a match (or ball count for 9 ball). I would try and make each race 1 rack lower than it currently is (for 8 ball). I am thinking about something like 4's and under race to 2, plus the difference in your skill level for a higher player. Example a 4 playing a 5 would be a 2 - 3 race, that same 4 playing a 8 would be a 2 - 6 race. A 3 playing a 4 would be 2 - 3 race. For when both skill levels higher than a 4 it would be a base race to 3 plus the difference in the skill level, so a 5 playing a 6 would be a 3 - 4 race, a 5 playing a 9 would be 3 - 7 race.
So here is the big change, instead of having a 23 skill limit, have a max difference between skill levels for the match each night. So if two 7's play a match against each other, there would be 0 difference. If a 3 played a 6 there would be a 3 point difference. I am not sure what a good max difference (delta) would be, I would need to see some data and do some number crunching, but that would go a long way help keep some teams together and also force teams to find some newer lower ranked players. Teams would need to be well balanced and have a full range of players so they can match up and not go over the max difference for the night. There would need to be something put in place in order to keep teams from intentionally trying to bust the other team (say we put up our 10 last, the other team can't be allowed to throw their 1 just to make the 1st team bust their number.
The last thing I would change, would be the # of time outs available. 3 and below get 3 per match and 4's and above get 1 per match. Notice, that is per match, not per rack. Maybe give each time 1 or 2 "wild" card timeouts per night that can be used when their player has used all the timeouts for their match.
Individual game rules I would pretty much keep the same, the only things I would change is allow a pushout in 9 ball (marked as a defensive shot). Table always open after the break in 8 ball and no lose of game for scratching while attempting to pocket the 8 (obviously a loss if you actually make the 8 and scratch). I am changing that only because of the shortened races for the night, I would rather people win on the table and not sitting in the chair.
PS -- oh yeah, get rid of that F'N pocket marker for obvious shots, it causes more fights than it prevents because 90% of higher skill level players just call it anyways.
#1 -the handicap system pretty much works for people who don't intentionally try to game the system. However the there is too much range in the individual skill levels
#2 - The 23 SL number does cause teams to split, however I seen a lot of those higher ranked players just not come back and whole teams just go away.
#3- Lower skilled players are too valuable to teams, this causes teams trying to steal players and creates animosity throughout the league.
#4- The nights are too long, A lot of players quit after their 1st session or cut back on the nights they play because they have to work in the morning.
#5- The scoring app is an absolute disaster, it constantly crashes and freezes up, the GUI is good, but the system back end needs a LOT of work.
My idea to help fix some of this stuff is to expand the handicap system and tweak it a little bit, esp with the APP now available to help do the math to figure out the races. I would do away with individual skill levels for 8 ball and 9 ball. Sure you might be a bit better at one than the other, but for the most part we are all amateurs, and most peoples skill levels are already fairly close already, so just do away with it.
Expand the handicap system to a skill level of 0 to 10 to help balance out the races and give everyone a chance to win on most nights and give a truer picture of someones skill level.
Next you need to come up with a way to get the number of races for a match (or ball count for 9 ball). I would try and make each race 1 rack lower than it currently is (for 8 ball). I am thinking about something like 4's and under race to 2, plus the difference in your skill level for a higher player. Example a 4 playing a 5 would be a 2 - 3 race, that same 4 playing a 8 would be a 2 - 6 race. A 3 playing a 4 would be 2 - 3 race. For when both skill levels higher than a 4 it would be a base race to 3 plus the difference in the skill level, so a 5 playing a 6 would be a 3 - 4 race, a 5 playing a 9 would be 3 - 7 race.
So here is the big change, instead of having a 23 skill limit, have a max difference between skill levels for the match each night. So if two 7's play a match against each other, there would be 0 difference. If a 3 played a 6 there would be a 3 point difference. I am not sure what a good max difference (delta) would be, I would need to see some data and do some number crunching, but that would go a long way help keep some teams together and also force teams to find some newer lower ranked players. Teams would need to be well balanced and have a full range of players so they can match up and not go over the max difference for the night. There would need to be something put in place in order to keep teams from intentionally trying to bust the other team (say we put up our 10 last, the other team can't be allowed to throw their 1 just to make the 1st team bust their number.
The last thing I would change, would be the # of time outs available. 3 and below get 3 per match and 4's and above get 1 per match. Notice, that is per match, not per rack. Maybe give each time 1 or 2 "wild" card timeouts per night that can be used when their player has used all the timeouts for their match.
Individual game rules I would pretty much keep the same, the only things I would change is allow a pushout in 9 ball (marked as a defensive shot). Table always open after the break in 8 ball and no lose of game for scratching while attempting to pocket the 8 (obviously a loss if you actually make the 8 and scratch). I am changing that only because of the shortened races for the night, I would rather people win on the table and not sitting in the chair.
PS -- oh yeah, get rid of that F'N pocket marker for obvious shots, it causes more fights than it prevents because 90% of higher skill level players just call it anyways.
the scoring app works perfect in our area now, before it didnt though.
I wish it did in our area, it totally crashes for everyone at least once a night, doesn't matter what device your on, Ipad, Iphone, Android, doesn't matter if your on Wifi or cell data, it just locks up and won't respond to anything, might give some errors at the bottom on a red banner about not being able to connect to server sometimes. It's really frustrating for 9 ball, trying to switch to paper and still catch up and still keep track. It was getting better at the end of last session, however they just pushed a new version of the app and it seems to have gotten worse.
dquarasr
Registered
I know this thread started out as discussing APA handicap rules, but please permit me to digress a bit.
I've been playing APA since 2019. I learned how to keep score. I became co-captain and then captain of one of our double-jeopardy teams.
After a while, I ended up being chained to my chair all night keeping score. Others either feigned that they didn't know how (after showing them many times) or flat out refused. Running both teams when my cohort captain was absent, with two matches going on, sometimes makeup matches, and even doubling up matches so we didn't get done at 12:30am (starting at 7pm), made pool night NOT FUN AT ALL.
I can't fault my LO. They do a really nice job but as in any endeavor involving people from the "general population", if you are assigned players because you don't know five people of your own to field a team, well, you get what you get.
I had threatened to skip fall session altogether, intending to sign up for a BCA league, but I was enticed to try a Scotch Doubles 8-ball league. A former teammate and I have done only one week, and we've practiced Scotch together (the game, not the liquor!), and so far we're having a TON OF FUN. Three matches, start at 7:30, done by 10 or 10:30, and we're learning from each other, especially in the Scotch match where we have to focus on CB position for our partner. Makes us bear down better and think much more before shooting.
I don't have "the answer" to the "teammate" conundrum, except that the more you participate, the more people you know to recruit for a team, rather than depending on the LO to assign players. Providing your own players helps craft team chemistry.
Well maybe I am wrong but most who play Pool are not World Class players.
If the recreation player stopped playing, honestly most of the places to play would not be open for business.
Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
I think we're agreeing. It makes total sense that the Diamond 7ft tables dominate the modern game. They take up the real estate of a bar box but are suitable for elite players. My point is that when you replace all of the bar boxes with Diamonds the game is less approachable and more frustrating for novice players and that's bad for growth and going to bed the same day your league match started. I'm not saying SVB should play on Valleys and I'm not saying Justin Thomas should play 5500 yd golf courses, but the average player would be happier doing both.Quick, someone tell svb his favorite game isn't for "REAL" players
Though I am salty about the slow disappearance of 9ft tables. The three nicest rooms near me are all 10:1 7ft:9ft.
Sounds a lot like my own journey, almost to perfection. My Double Jeopardy team quit after last session solely due to the late nights, it was after midnight almost every week, we were there until 1:30am one week. Most of us formed a 9ball only team on another night. Last night was the first night and we started at 7:00pm (DJ was 6:30) and we were out of there by 9:30pm, even with the scoring app crashing and having to catch up all the scores.
Not to get too far off topic. but double jeopardy CAN be really fun and make for some good nights as long as teams would just play and not dilly dally all night. There are a few teams in our league who are usually out of there before 10:00pm as long as the other team cooperates, however they are few and far between. It was fitting that on the last night of our last session the team we played screwed around all night, going to the bar between every rack, taking 5 min timeouts, going out to smoke when they put up for a match, refusing to play more than two tables because 1/2 team was out smoking and they didn't have scorekeepers, well it was about 10:15 and the final 8 ball match and #4 nine ball match was in progress, So all we had left was one 9 ball match to start on the 3rd table, the other teams put up. Well 10:30 roles around, they still didn't put up, 10:45 roles around and me hounding them, they finally tell me they will put up when one of the other matched were over because the person they wanted to put up was keeping score. So now its a little past 11:00pm and the other 9 ball match is finally over, so they put this person up and what do they do, go to the bar and order food and asks us to wait 10 minutes so they can get their food and eat. I told them don't worry about it, we should have started playing about 50 minutes ago when we had an open table and since you obviously don't care about playing we are just going to forfeit the last match so we can go home. I am hoping that might help some teams next session that plays this team, maybe they will be considerate and think about time.