Did I make a bad call as Tournament Director?

[Mick]

So, Vic was up 1-0. Bob then makes the 8 out of turn and Vic should have won 2-0.

Correct.

Instead he looses 2-1 to Bob the cheater. And, I say cheater because you said it was played on 8' valley bar box. No way I can believe Bob didn't see the 8 go in and/or also not see Vic pick up the 8 from the side of the table. Otherwise, Bob's just not paying attention at all and certainly didn't deserve to win the match.

Incorrect.

"The sequence of events as I now understand it is: Bob makes the 4 on a sharp cut, breaks into cluster containing 8 and cueball scratches off of breakout, balls move around as bob turns, 8 goes in unbeknownst to bob. Vic pulls up balls before bob is made aware, both bob and I misunderstand Vic's description of events."

 

[Bob Jewett]

Correct.

Incorrect.

"The sequence of events as I now understand it is: Bob makes the 4 on a sharp cut, breaks into cluster containing 8 and cueball scratches off of breakout, balls move around as bob turns, 8 goes in unbeknownst to bob. Vic pulls up balls before bob is made aware, both bob and I misunderstand Vic's description of events."

In the heat of the battle -- being a TD -- sometimes things get hurried. I've been on both sides of that. In retrospect....

Although Vic's description may have seemed clear at the time, you could have asked him to describe contact by contact how the shot went. Start with a description of how the balls were sitting before the shot. Try to form a complete picture of the shot even though you weren't there. Hope that the two players agree on most of the details. Maybe ask bystanders that you trust if the players' comments are inconsistent. Look around for informal streamers.

 

[WoodyJ]

Incorrect.

"The sequence of events as I now understand it is: Bob makes the 4 on a sharp cut, breaks into cluster containing 8 and cueball scratches off of breakout, balls move around as bob turns, 8 goes in unbeknownst to bob. Vic pulls up balls before bob is made aware, both bob and I misunderstand Vic's description of events."

O.K. so Vic is quick on the draw and Bob is unaware.

Maybe Vic needed to explain better but did either you or Bob ask Vic why he thought he won the game?

 

[maha]

yes your job is too have a complete description of how the shot when down from both sides. with no assumptions from you.
only then can you make the right decision.
vic knows you are friends with bob so automatically thinks you favored him.

this one could have gone a few different ways.

 

[boogieman]

So, Vic was up 1-0. Bob then makes the 8 out of turn and Vic should have won 2-0.

Instead he looses 2-1 to Bob the cheater. And, I say cheater because you said it was played on 8' valley bar box. No way I can believe Bob didn't see the 8 go in and/or also not see Vic pick up the 8 from the side of the table. Otherwise, Bob's just not paying attention at all and certainly didn't deserve to win the match.

Edit: Also, Bob claims he didn't see what went on. So, he should have listened to Vic's version instead of arguing about what happened.

I'm not saying you're wrong but Bob legit may have not realized what happened and that doesn't make him a cheater. If he wasn't paying attention I agree, he doesn't really deserve the W. Shit happens in the heat of tournaments, your focus leaves you, get pissed about something like scratching and miss the fact you knocked the 8 in.

I'd never rake the balls until I shook an opponents hand. Vic should not have done that. Not that he was in the wrong, but if he hadn't raked the balls it would be easy to see the 8 was gone off the table. Live and learn. @Mick did the best he could do to determine what went wrong after the fact. It was as fair of a call as he could do having not seen it happen. I'd guess Vic learned not to rake balls and Bob may have learned to watch the table until all balls have stopped moving. It's unfortunate but being a fair TD isn't always easy and it can get you hated through no fault of your own, only trying to be as fair as possible will still end up with haters.

I've seen the most honest man I know clip a close ball and not realize it. Pool can be distracting, add in the tournament atmosphere and you can easily miss stuff, especially if you're angry about scratching. Looking away from the table and trying to put it out of your head is better than making kindling with your stick. It just so happened that when Bob looked away the 8 went in too.

 

[Gear101]

Pool hall I play in, if you swipe the balls you just conceded the match or put your hands in the pockets to retrieve potted balls.

 

[sixpack]

Everybody has some blame in this situation.

Bob for not paying attention to his game.

Vic for raking the balls before getting an acknowledgement from his opponent.

You for not making sure you completely understood what each player was trying to tell you before you made the call.

It can be hard in the heat of the moment and 'replay the game' is a safe out if you can't make a decision. But you owe it to the players in the tournament to ask a few more questions and make sure you understand the point both players are trying to make.

 

[WoodyJ]

I'm not saying you're wrong but Bob legit may have not realized what happened and that doesn't make him a cheater. If he wasn't paying attention I agree, he doesn't really deserve the W. Shit happens in the heat of tournaments, your focus leaves you, get pissed about something like scratching and miss the fact you knocked the 8 in.

Yep, Bob lost credibility with me when I heard he didn't see what happened and argued about it. To continue arguing about what happened (with someone who watched it happen) borders on cheating to me.

Whole different ballgame if Bob saw what happened.

I'd never rake the balls until I shook an opponents hand. Vic should not have done that. Not that he was in the wrong, but if he hadn't raked the balls it would be easy to see the 8 was gone off the table. Live and learn.

Definitely. I also don't touch the table until I've shook my opponent's hand at the end of a match.

I'd guess Vic learned not to rake balls and Bob may have learned to watch the table until all balls have stopped moving. It's unfortunate but being a fair TD isn't always easy and it can get you hated through no fault of your own, only trying to be as fair as possible will still end up with haters.

Whole lot of opportunities to learn for everyone involved plus us out here.

 

[thenaturalpoolplayer]

Here's a situation that came up tonight. One of the players is trashing me on social media as being biased, and I don't think it's deserved.

Situation: Vic and Bob are in a vnea 8-ball race to 2. Vic is up 1-0, and the second game has a mishap at the end. There is some arguing and confusion before I get called over.

Bob's version: He has run the table to the ball before the 8, a dark purple 4 ball. He cuts in the 4, but manages to scratch. He sits down as Vic approaches the table and, instead of taking ball in hand, Vic swipes the balls as if to rack a new rack.

Vic's version: Bob runs the table to the 8. While making the 8, Bob scratches. Vic swipes the table to rack the balls for the next players.

Both players have integrity, and I'd expect neither to lie or cheat. When I get to the scene, some balls have been brought up from the return in the confusion, and the 8 is currently on the table.

I rule that the only fair decision would be to replay the game, as the situation stems from an honest mistake by one of the players, and it is impossible to determine which player is mistaken.

Do you see any other possible ruling here?

UPDATE: I may have made a terrible call.

I am good friends with a person Vic explained the situation to after he left, and this friend has clarified the situation, as Vic sees it.

Vic's CLARIFIED version: Bob runs the table to the ball before the 8, the 4. While potting the 4, bob crashes into the 8 with the cueball, causing the cueball to go in. The cueball colliding with the 8 ALSO CAUSES THE 8 TO GO IN. Vic then sweeps the table as the game is clearly over.

Well... dammit. That makes a lot more sense now. In my defense, Vic continued to describe the results of the shot as "Bob scratched on the 8", Which in my mind meant, "Cueball went in while intentionally potting the 8." The confusingly colored 4-ball certainly didn't help my understanding of the situation. I do now understand why he got mad and was calling us cheaters.

Sounds like they both saw what they saw.

Why would Vic swipe the balls intentionally if he saw that bob just missed the 4 ball? How could he ever think to get away with it? He had ball in hand with all his balls open, why would he even need to "cheat"? Who would swipe the balls versus running out? Especially in league where you wait around for ever to play.

Why, If Bob did make it to the 8 ball and scratch, and then watch Vic clear the balls as expected, would bob then decide to make up some story about missing the 4 ball not scratching on the 8? How could he think to get away with it?

Logically it makes no sense that either of them is lying. Bob scratched on the 4 ball, and Vic mistook it for the 8 ball because it is
purple and could look black in low light. I assume. Mystery solved.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Nothing wrong with the decision you made with the info you had. The players needed to explain what happened better. Not sure why Bob would not realize the game was over if the made the 8 ball out of turn.

Precisely. He didn't scratch on the 8.... he made the 8 out-of-turn. That's how Vic should have worded it and there would have been no misunderstanding.

 

[gregcantrall]

Either way I thought scratching on the 8 was ball in hand not a loss...so in this case wouldn't it have been spotted?

Your lack of knowledge is overwhelming.

 

[thenaturalpoolplayer]

Your lack of knowledge is overwhelming.

That's how league is played out here...only a loss if you sink the 8 in the wrong pocket.

 

[buckshotshoey]

That's how league is played out here...only a loss if you sink the 8 in the wrong pocket.

BCAPL...Yes. And a loss if you sink the 8 AND also scratch. Scratching anytime while playing the 8 is a loss pretty much everywhere else.

 

[thenaturalpoolplayer]

BCAPL...Yes. And a loss if you sink the 8 AND also scratch. Scratching anytime while playing the 8 is a loss pretty much everywhere else.

That's what I thought but apparently you can scratch on the 8 in our league.

 

[garczar]

Yep, Bob lost credibility with me when I heard he didn't see what happened and argued about it. To continue arguing about what happened (with someone who watched it happen) borders on cheating to me.

Whole different ballgame if Bob saw what happened.



Definitely. I also don't touch the table until I've shook my opponent's hand at the end of a match.



Whole lot of opportunities to learn for everyone involved plus us out here.

relax there karen. based on op's account it doesn't sound like either is a cheater. this is just another league pool dumpster fire. happens all the time.

 

[WoodyJ]

relax there karen. based on op's account it doesn't sound like either is a cheater. this is just another league pool dumpster fire. happens all the time.

Yeah, cheater is a harsh word they brought up. Just my opinion on their dispute.

If Vic believed he had just won the match 2-0, then he should have been able to say why clearly to the TD.

Also, this wasn't a pool league? A weekly tournament with TD. But, dumpster fire is an apt description.

 

[gregcantrall]

That's how league is played out here...only a loss if you sink the 8 in the wrong pocket.

When the 8 ball leaves the table the game is over. Period. The cue ball leaving the table is handled by different sets of rules differently.

 

[jay helfert]

Here's a situation that came up tonight. One of the players is trashing me on social media as being biased, and I don't think it's deserved.

Situation: Vic and Bob are in a vnea 8-ball race to 2. Vic is up 1-0, and the second game has a mishap at the end. There is some arguing and confusion before I get called over.

Bob's version: He has run the table to the ball before the 8, a dark purple 4 ball. He cuts in the 4, but manages to scratch. He sits down as Vic approaches the table and, instead of taking ball in hand, Vic swipes the balls as if to rack a new rack.

Vic's version: Bob runs the table to the 8. While making the 8, Bob scratches. Vic swipes the table to rack the balls for the next players.

Both players have integrity, and I'd expect neither to lie or cheat. When I get to the scene, some balls have been brought up from the return in the confusion, and the 8 is currently on the table.

I rule that the only fair decision would be to replay the game, as the situation stems from an honest mistake by one of the players, and it is impossible to determine which player is mistaken.

Do you see any other possible ruling here?

UPDATE: I may have made a terrible call.

I am good friends with a person Vic explained the situation to after he left, and this friend has clarified the situation, as Vic sees it.

Vic's CLARIFIED version: Bob runs the table to the ball before the 8, the 4. While potting the 4, bob crashes into the 8 with the cueball, causing the cueball to go in. The cueball colliding with the 8 ALSO CAUSES THE 8 TO GO IN. Vic then sweeps the table as the game is clearly over.

Well... dammit. That makes a lot more sense now. In my defense, Vic continued to describe the results of the shot as "Bob scratched on the 8", Which in my mind meant, "Cueball went in while intentionally potting the 8." The confusingly colored 4-ball certainly didn't help my understanding of the situation. I do now understand why he got mad and was calling us cheaters.

According to this "clarified" version the game is in fact over and Vic won. Of course with some of the "new" rules for Eight Ball the eight would be spotted and Bob gets BIH behind the line. So unless you specify what rules you are playing by we don't know if the match was over or not.

 

[Mick]

So unless you specify what rules you are playing by we don't know if the match was over or not.

Situation: Vic and Bob are in a vnea 8-ball race to 2.

 

[hang-the-9]

Either way I thought scratching on the 8 was ball in hand not a loss...so in this case wouldn't it have been spotted? If not then pull the video as it is imperative we get the call right for this crucial league game.

If the 8 does not go in, then yes in world rules and some leagues it's not a loss if you scratch on the 8. If the 8 is made and you scratch, then it's a loss. Reasoning behind the rule is for bar box 8 ball play where you can't get the pocketed balls in coin op tables, 8 drops, so you either win on it, or lose on it, or pay another buck or two to get it out again LOL