APA Double Hit Rule

hang-the-9 said:
You can explain the rule, but not tell the player how to play it to comply with the rules. So he can explain what a double hit is, hit the cueball twice with you stick, but not how to avoid it. That other part should have been done in practice or the player reading the rules and learning to play. The other team if they were worried about a double hit by that player should have called a time out and instructed them how to shoot to avoid it, that would be perfectly legal. This situation is no different than if the player was about to shoot a clear scratch and the ref said "you need to draw the cueball or you will scratch".
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I’ve heard plenty of refs tell the player they need to shoot away from the ball to avoid the double hit. Strictly talking about APA refs
 
That behavior started at the national level and filtered into local areas with referee programs. Oddly enough, it's those areas with referee programs that would be perfectly fine with referees calling it the way everyone here suggests. But believe it or not, there are entire franchise areas where a double hit foul has never even been heard of. We all know the reaction you get when you call a double hit foul on a player who has never heard of such a thing. The guilty party insists that they never hit the cue ball twice, to the point of becoming belligerent - insisting that they've been cheated. This is not a behavior APA wants in their national events - sometimes it's more important that the participants come away with a positive experience than it is that every situation be treated like it's a tournament for professional players. So when a referee is called to watch for a double hit, they are instructed to tell the shooter what they're watching for and how to avoid it. They're also instructed to inform the opposing team that this is what they're going to do. It gets covered in captain's meetings too, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Since the APA chooses referees for their national events from franchises that use referees locally and have referee programs, that practice has found its way into many of those programs as the operators see the benefits of doing so locally and of being consistent with the way it's done nationally. If your referee didn't tell you what they were going to do and it wasn't explained to everyone at a players' meeting before the event, it's understandable that you would be surprised.

Sometimes camaraderie wins out over cutthroat in the APA.
 
sgonzalez34 said:
I never thought I would ask for help on an APA Rule since I can look this up myself. However, tonight while playing in a local APA TriCups Tournament match, the opposing team's player had a shot where the cue ball was within millimeters of the object ball she was shooting next. I called over the referee to watch the shot since she would likely double hit if the cue was hit straight into the object. When the referee came over to watch the hit, he proceeded to explain to the shooting player that she would likely foul with a double hit unless she hit the cue ball to the right or left away from the from object ball. She proceeded to hit away so there was no foul. However, I was confused as to why he tipped her off or warned her of the likely double hit. When I asked the referee, he explained that he was obligated to inform her of the likely foul if she hit straight through.

I could not find anywhere in the APA rules that the referee must inform the player of a likely double hit when called to watch the hit. Can someone shed some light on the referee's responsibility in this case?

Thank you!
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Just another reason i quit league pool, ultra-NITTY shit like this. wow.
 
Had a similar experience at the APA nationals a few years back. Played a safe where I locked them up next to their own ball and one of mine against the rail. Maybe only a 1/2 of inch between their OB and the CB. Couldn't shoot to the side as my ball was there. Figured they would have to kick to the end rail to try and hit one of their balls. Once they lined up we called a ref to watch for a double hit. Ref talked to them and they raised their cue 45 degrees and fired right through the OB with the CB chasing it down the table. Ref watched then said "good hit". I asked him how that was possible, he explained they were directed that as long as the cue was at 45 or greater the hit was good.

I have not played in the APA for a few years now so not sure if that is still what they are doing.
 
Shenanigans said:
Had a similar experience at the APA nationals a few years back. Played a safe where I locked them up next to their own ball and one of mine against the rail. Maybe only a 1/2 of inch between their OB and the CB. Couldn't shoot to the side as my ball was there. Figured they would have to kick to the end rail to try and hit one of their balls. Once they lined up we called a ref to watch for a double hit. Ref talked to them and they raised their cue 45 degrees and fired right through the OB with the CB chasing it down the table. Ref watched then said "good hit". I asked him how that was possible, he explained they were directed that as long as the cue was at 45 or greater the hit was good.

I have not played in the APA for a few years now so not sure if that is still what they are doing.
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It’s pretty much the same. Found the refs to be very arrogant last year in Vegas.
 
Shenanigans said:
Had a similar experience at the APA nationals a few years back. Played a safe where I locked them up next to their own ball and one of mine against the rail. Maybe only a 1/2 of inch between their OB and the CB. Couldn't shoot to the side as my ball was there. Figured they would have to kick to the end rail to try and hit one of their balls. Once they lined up we called a ref to watch for a double hit. Ref talked to them and they raised their cue 45 degrees and fired right through the OB with the CB chasing it down the table. Ref watched then said "good hit". I asked him how that was possible, he explained they were directed that as long as the cue was at 45 or greater the hit was good.

I have not played in the APA for a few years now so not sure if that is still what they are doing.
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I'd rather have them explain to my opponent how to hit the ball properly than allow the 45 degree BS.
 
APA Operator said:
That behavior started at the national level and filtered into local areas with referee programs. Oddly enough, it's those areas with referee programs that would be perfectly fine with referees calling it the way everyone here suggests. But believe it or not, there are entire franchise areas where a double hit foul has never even been heard of. We all know the reaction you get when you call a double hit foul on a player who has never heard of such a thing. The guilty party insists that they never hit the cue ball twice, to the point of becoming belligerent - insisting that they've been cheated. This is not a behavior APA wants in their national events - sometimes it's more important that the participants come away with a positive experience than it is that every situation be treated like it's a tournament for professional players. So when a referee is called to watch for a double hit, they are instructed to tell the shooter what they're watching for and how to avoid it. They're also instructed to inform the opposing team that this is what they're going to do. It gets covered in captain's meetings too, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Since the APA chooses referees for their national events from franchises that use referees locally and have referee programs, that practice has found its way into many of those programs as the operators see the benefits of doing so locally and of being consistent with the way it's done nationally. If your referee didn't tell you what they were going to do and it wasn't explained to everyone at a players' meeting before the event, it's understandable that you would be surprised.

Sometimes camaraderie wins out over cutthroat in the APA.
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APA rules are designed to avoid controversy and conflict at all costs. This is why there is no call pocket and slop is allowed in 8-ball and why a player must use a marker to mark the intended pocket when playing the 8-ball. Like it or leave it, this is what you sign up for.
 
The 45 deg rule is always misunderstood. It comes from playing bar rules too much.

The cue should be 45 deg or greater on the horizontal, not the vertical. Especially when cue ball and object ball are within 1/4 inch of each other.
 
I had the chance to referee at the national level one year and they had us at the captains meeting, that we will explain the double hit rule to the player. The thought is that lower level players don't understand the rule very well and many good players don't really. I have also refereed several tri cups and regional singles events. I explain at the captains meeting how I'm going to call the close hits. The APA does a poor job as a push shot is not a foul but sportsmanship issue but a double hit is a foul.
 
Although I don’t agree with it, I appreciate the explanation provided by APA Operator.


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Don't see a problem here. Nothing wrong with the ref explaining what constitutes a foul.
 
buckshotshoey said:
The 45 deg rule is always misunderstood. It comes from playing bar rules too much.

The cue should be 45 deg or greater on the horizontal, not the vertical. Especially when cue ball and object ball are within 1/4 inch of each other.
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Even that does not prevent a foul, you can still hit the ball bad. TAP uses a pretty general rule for close shots, if the cue is elevated you can't call a foul. Which I think is idiotic. They are saying "if you look like you are trying not to foul, that means you did not foul".
 
JessEm said:
Don't see a problem here. Nothing wrong with the ref explaining what constitutes a foul.
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That's not what the ref did though, he said how the player needs to shoot to not foul, which is not what the ref is there for. Explaining what a double hit is and that it's a foul, if the player asked, that is a yes. Saying how to shoot to avoid the foul is not, they just need to call if a foul occurred on the shot or not. If a ref is brought over to watch the hit, they should not say a word till the player shoots unless the player asked, "what is the rule here that applies to the shot". You learn the rule during practice and pay during the regular session, not in the middle of playoffs.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Even that does not prevent a foul, you can still hit the ball bad. TAP uses a pretty general rule for close shots, if the cue is elevated you can't call a foul. Which I think is idiotic. They are saying "if you look like you are trying not to foul, that means you did not foul".
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It's an amateur league, I think the fact that they tell people to try not to foul is pretty reasonable
 
hang-the-9 said:
Even that does not prevent a foul, you can still hit the ball bad. TAP uses a pretty general rule for close shots, if the cue is elevated you can't call a foul. Which I think is idiotic. They are saying "if you look like you are trying not to foul, that means you did not foul".
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Texas Express implemented that rule which I default t. Never ran into anything sanctioned or private to the contrary at the peanuts level.
 
This thread brings up a question. If I’m asked by the captain of another team totally removed from my team’s match to watch for a bad hit in his match, do I need to first ask if he has informed his player what could constitute a double hit? Not all APA members know what constitutes a double hit. I’ve seen several arguments over a “double hit”. Should the team captain call a time out to explain the situation to the shooter before calling me over to watch the hit? Just curious.
 
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