If funding for it ever became available, no sport would benefit more (on television) from advanced graphical models than nine ball

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diderot

Member
Nine ball is still very boring to watch for a casual fan. The players are so good and make it look so easy that the racks don't interest the average viewer, mainly because they don't understand the complexity of each shot.

In major sports you regularly see visualizations of different actions. Pitches in baseball have visualized arcs that show movement and RPM (as well as overlays from hitters POV of fastball vs offspeed). In basketball they now show real-time shot distance, percentage of makes from that distance for that player, and replays showing how different defensive actions succeeded/failed.

If ever possible, visualized models showing things like cue ball path if the player didn't use english versus the cue ball path taken with the english played would translate into more people understanding the skill involved. Other things like showing the speed of the shot and where the cue ball landed, versus how different speeds would have landed, or how thin/full the object ball was hit and how this affected cue ball path/speed.

All of this would do a better job of translating the difficulty and skill of something like nine ball. I understand this takes a lot of money that might not exist right now, but I am curious if this is something even being considered down the road. Counterfactuals are the best thing for understanding the low probability of different outcomes, and nine ball involves a lot of perfectly played shots that could easily go otherwise. This is lost on the viewer overall though, and the outcome is a dull viewing experience for the average person.
 
i think they need to go even more basic than that. i've suggested before that the next ball in rotation should be highlighted visually, like it flashes red (if it's the 3-ball) for a short while. the balls in the bottom of the screen is that's supposed to show the ball sequence is often too small and i think insufficient for a complete newcomer.
 
diderot said:
Nine ball is still very boring to watch for a casual fan. The players are so good and make it look so easy that the racks don't interest the average viewer, mainly because they don't understand the complexity of each shot.

In major sports you regularly see visualizations of different actions. Pitches in baseball have visualized arcs that show movement and RPM (as well as overlays from hitters POV of fastball vs offspeed). In basketball they now show real-time shot distance, percentage of makes from that distance for that player, and replays showing how different defensive actions succeeded/failed.

If ever possible, visualized models showing things like cue ball path if the player didn't use english versus the cue ball path taken with the english played would translate into more people understanding the skill involved. Other things like showing the speed of the shot and where the cue ball landed, versus how different speeds would have landed, or how thin/full the object ball was hit and how this affected cue ball path/speed.

All of this would do a better job of translating the difficulty and skill of something like nine ball. I understand this takes a lot of money that might not exist right now, but I am curious if this is something even being considered down the road. Counterfactuals are the best thing for understanding the low probability of different outcomes, and nine ball involves a lot of perfectly played shots that could easily go otherwise. This is lost on the viewer overall though, and the outcome is a dull viewing experience for the average person.
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Careful this can be overdone , then the almost viewer, Will be the no viewer, Much like learning to enjoy the 9 ball games without commentators... There for the love of the game and not so much the learning experience... If the games entices the viewer then the love is there and from that the pool game viewer will develop... We as viewers can become part of the game and then there is no more enjoyment for us than to get involved in a good competitive set of pool games... Many times infaivor of both or either player to win... As an old man, I’ve watched a million sets and fixing to go watch another now... Thanks for... Guy
 
Guy Manges said:
Careful this can be overdone , then the almost viewer, Will be the no viewer, Much like learning to enjoy the 9 ball games without commentators... There for the love of the game and not so much the learning experience... If the games entices the viewer then the love is there and from that the pool game viewer will develop... We as viewers can become part of the game and then there is no more enjoyment for us than to get involved in a good competitive set of pool games... Many times infaivor of both or either player to win... As an old man, I’ve watched a million sets and fixing to go watch another now... Thanks for... Guy
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So much of the game isn't clear. How does one learn about english/speed/playing to parts of pocket without seeking it out yourself/playing a lot? Why not bring that all to the viewer to make things more accessible and increase interest?
 
BRussell said:
I’m always surprised that they don‘t draw on the screen any more. They did that 30 years ago.
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Good point. That surprises me too. The Matchroom event commentary is a complete waste in my opinion. Never sure what the point of them is, as they bring up nothing the big pool fan isn't thinking of, and nothing that really interests a casual fan.
 
skogstokig said:
i think they need to go even more basic than that. i've suggested before that the next ball in rotation should be highlighted visually, like it flashes red (if it's the 3-ball) for a short while. the balls in the bottom of the screen is that's supposed to show the ball sequence is often too small and i think insufficient for a complete newcomer.
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YES... Guy
 
diderot said:
So much of the game isn't clear. How does one learn about english/speed/playing to parts of pocket without seeking it out yourself/playing a lot? Why not bring that all to the viewer to make things more accessible and increase interest?
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I think that much of that can be done with good commentary aimed at the appropriate level, but I agree that graphics can help. Another thing that can help is brief instructional vignettes put into dead time. "15 Second Lessons -- The Draw Shot". Or, "Pointers from Predator -- The Standard Break"
 
Why does the casual fan of pool or a person randomly watch need to know how each and every shot is preformed? European commentators are fun to listen to, they bring some excitement to the matches, similar to boxing commentators. Most American commentators are boring, explain each and every shot and bring zero excitement to the viewer. Having diagrams drawn or shown is a good idea. they used to do that on espn some years ago. Buddy Hall, during a commercial break on espn had a lesson on how shots or positions were played. I personally don't want any commentary. Just the natural sounds of pool being played. espn has different channels without commentary and different angles to watch football games. Thanks for reading.
 
I agree with JustPlay. I don't need a commentator trying to guess what they are going to do next or how to shoot it. 99.9999999% of the time, regardless of what game it is, I know exactly what they are going to do next. No commentator in any other sport does this type of commentary. It's exhausting listening to the constant banality. Talk about other things, other aspects. For goodness sake get Jimmy Mataya in there so we can have some personality in the booth and I don't have to listen to British snooker guys using snooker terms for everything while I'm watching. Pool Hell would be watching Tyler Styer vs Kaci with no shot clock and Karl Boyes and Jim Wytch on the mic.
 
diderot said:
So much of the game isn't clear. How does one learn about english/speed/playing to parts of pocket without seeking it out yourself/playing a lot? Why not bring that all to the viewer to make things more accessible and increase interest?
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The sad part is ( and I guess thats life, Some people need this and some don't, all depends on the depth of viewing enjoyment, I wish you luck in your pool games and hope you can enjoy them as I have for over 75 years... Guy
 
I was watching this match recently and was very struck by both the commentators ability to make the match exciting, with great flow, and also his ability to describe the complexities of certain shots.

Whatever the solution for making the tournaments more interesting/exciting for the viewer, the current Matchroom product is not the answer from my perspective


 
diderot said:
Nine ball is still very boring to watch for a casual fan. The players are so good and make it look so easy that the racks don't interest the average viewer, mainly because they don't understand the complexity of each shot.

In major sports you regularly see visualizations of different actions. Pitches in baseball have visualized arcs that show movement and RPM (as well as overlays from hitters POV of fastball vs offspeed). In basketball they now show real-time shot distance, percentage of makes from that distance for that player, and replays showing how different defensive actions succeeded/failed.

If ever possible, visualized models showing things like cue ball path if the player didn't use english versus the cue ball path taken with the english played would translate into more people understanding the skill involved. Other things like showing the speed of the shot and where the cue ball landed, versus how different speeds would have landed, or how thin/full the object ball was hit and how this affected cue ball path/speed.

All of this would do a better job of translating the difficulty and skill of something like nine ball. I understand this takes a lot of money that might not exist right now, but I am curious if this is something even being considered down the road. Counterfactuals are the best thing for understanding the low probability of different outcomes, and nine ball involves a lot of perfectly played shots that could easily go otherwise. This is lost on the viewer overall though, and the outcome is a dull viewing experience for the average person.
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One of the things that I find visually distracting when watching racing, is that just when the cars are coming out of the corner with the foot hard on the gas, they change camera angles to PREVENT one from watching the physics transpire as the car tracks out and runs down the straights.

Occasionally, when watching pool, this same camera kind of ¿work? is applied, moving the frame of view just before the ball is struck preventing you from actually seeing the intimacy of the shot itself.

Also note: A view from the side or a view from the end is N O T the way to film people shooting pool. You want the camera either dead on the path the ball will take with the player in the center of the FoV, or you want the camera immediately behind the cueing arm of the shot looking down the path the CB sill take.

Pool on TV C A N be interesting, but not with the kind of camera work currently being employed--that kind of camera work P R E VE N T S the audience from seeing any of the subtleties of the game.

Snooker is much better at this than American Pool TV.
 
I like it simple. Give me good camera work and decent commentary and i'm happy. Have no need/desire for all kinds of info-graphics. Snooker coverage is the gold standard imo.
 
next someone (justnum) will suggest a GoPro camera placed inside the cue ball. Get yours at the Harriman Academy and Social Safe Space today!
 
Watching sports is popular because it offers fans riveting moments of excitement that gets their heart rates up, sitting on the edge of their seats and jumping for joy when their team scores. The kick off return. The slide into home plate. Coming down the stretch side by side to the finish line. The contest are played in venues among cheering fans and broadcast across the world to congregations of other cheering fans.

No amount of camera work is going to bring that to pool.
 
I'm going to put forward something to at least hopefully think about before saying it can't be done, but probably be blasphemy to some seasoned pool fans, and that is to consider more televised 8 ball tournaments for viewing. Everyone says we need to do this 9&10 ball game this way, change it that way, and change this and change that to 9&10 ball to create more interest in pool viewership and interest to grow the sport and get a bigger viewership. Well one way to do that is to put out a sport where more can relate to, and that is 8 ball. With 9 ball and 10 ball the average public has zero knowledge about it, and even if it were introduced to them as a spot on tv sports, or they stumbled on it in YouTube, they may watch for a few minutes, but it would be so foreign to them they would quit watching, as the only thing they know about pool is that they may have played it someone else's house party, played at a bar for something to do, or possibly played at a pool establishment for a night out, and for sure the game they played is 8 ball. Heck, I think if you were to ask, a high percentage of pool players have never played 9 or 10 ball.
Baseball, football, golf, tennis, darts, and corn hole, all have a great following on TV with the cash benefits that it brings. What do all those sports have in common, they are all sports that the average person knows and understands and are played like they know.
I realize that 9&10 ball are the sports that pros play now, but are they really the right games to play to increase not only viewership and prize money, but also increased interest in pool as a whole?
Let's face it, every month or two, there is a post that deals with what needs to be done to better promote pool and get it televised with the benefits that come along with that. All the comments are basically we need bigger bankrollers/ not going to happen without bigger viewership, TV coverage/ not going to happen without more interest, bigger sustained prize money, not going to happen in a meaningful way with just You tube and pay per view. The only way to get a more sustained and bigger paycheck for touring pros is for an increased viewership and interest in pool, and that is with the game that not only pool players know, but also those with just a casual interest in pool know, and those casual viewers have zero knowledge in 9 & 10 ball.
 
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muskyed said:
I'm going to put forward something to at least hopefully think about before saying it can't be done, but probably be blasphemy to some seasoned pool fans, and that is to consider more televised 8 ball tournaments for viewing. Everyone says we need to do this 9&10 ball game this way, change it that way, and change this and change that to 9&10 ball to create more interest in pool viewership and interest to grow the sport and get a bigger viewership. Well one way to do that is to put out a sport where more can relate to and that is 8 ball. With 9 ball and 10 ball the average public has zero knowledge about it, and even if it were introduced to them as a spot on tv sports, or they stumbled on it in YouTube, they may watch for a few minutes, but it would be so foreign to them they would quit watching, as the only thing they know about pool is that they may have played it someone else's house party, played at a bar for something to do, or possibly played at a pool establishment for a night out, and for sure the game they played is 8 ball. Heck, I think if you were to ask, a high percentage of pool players have never played 9 or 10 ball.
Baseball, football, golf, tennis, darts, and corn hole, all have a great following on TV with the cash benefits that it brings. What do all those sports have in common, they are all sports that the average person knows and understands and are played like they know.
I realize that 9&10 ball are the sports that pros play now, but are they really the right games to play to increase not only viewership and prize money, but also increased interest in pool as a whole?
Let's face it, every month or two, there is a post that deals with what needs to be done to better promote pool and get it televised with the benefits that come along with that. All the comments are basically we need bigger bankrollers/ not going to happen without bigger viewership, TV coverage/ not going to happen without more interest, bigger sustained prize money, not going to happen in a meaningful way with just You tube and pay per view. The only way to get a more sustained and bigger paycheck for touring pros is for an increased viewership and interest in pool, and that is with the game that not only pool players know, but also those with just a casual interest in pool know, and those casual viewers have zero knowledge in 9 & 10 ball.
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Agreed.
Walk in to any pool hall and the casual player is typically playing some version of 8 ball. If you can't get them to watch how can you expect to get non players to watch?

Growth is going to come from new markets,not suddenly getting a lot more people interested in rotation games by shrinking the pockets and making the tables 10ft.
 
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