CUE TESTING for Cue Ball Deflection, And PREDATOR REVO Carbon Fiber Shaft SIZE EFFECTS

BRussell said:
hangthe9: you’re probably compensating without trying. Im sure every experienced pool player does. I know I use backhand english when applying spin, but I do it unconsciously, and didn’t realize I did it until analyzing it quite a bit. I consciously use front-hand english blended with unconscious (or natural?) back-hand English, as best I can tell.
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If I was compensating for the spin when aiming I would end up with nearly the same result for all the shafts, and I was very careful to use a straight stroke without any side motions the shaft was lined up straight in line with the aiming point. I think if I was compensating to the side on the shot by even 1/4 of an inch, I'd be able to tell, or I would be missing shots by that much all the time. If I we can't tell where the hit was aimed within a couple of millimeters at most, there is no way anyone get through 5-6 balls consistently. Another thing is that I was not the only one trying this method, I have newer players do this when I explain what sidespin does to aim to show them why they may be missing and when they ask me about buying new equipment. They get pretty much the same result, within the limits of their ability to execute a straight stroke, the lowest LD shafts I tried hit nearly full ball for them as well.
 
hang-the-9 said:
If I was compensating for the spin when aiming I would end up with nearly the same result for all the shafts, and I was very careful to use a straight stroke without any side motions the shaft was lined up straight in line with the aiming point. I think if I was compensating to the side on the shot by even 1/4 of an inch, I'd be able to tell, or I would be missing shots by that much all the time. If I we can't tell where the hit was aimed within a couple of millimeters at most, there is no way anyone get through 5-6 balls consistently. Another thing is that I was not the only one trying this method, I have newer players do this when I explain what sidespin does to aim to show them why they may be missing and when they ask me about buying new equipment. They get pretty much the same result, within the limits of their ability to execute a straight stroke, the lowest LD shafts I tried hit nearly full ball for them as well.
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How do you compensate for deflection when you play? And then what do you do differently when you do your deflection testing? When you’ve shot a million shots and the compensation is so ingrained, I think it’s tough to just entirely turn that off.

I’m not trying to be argumentative with you, I just know that I’ve been through the same thought process until I realized I wasn’t doing what I thought I was doing. Also, Dr Dave’s findings seem pretty close to what others find (here’s an example:
).
 
hang-the-9 said:
If I was compensating for the spin when aiming I would end up with nearly the same result for all the shafts, and I was very careful to use a straight stroke without any side motions the shaft was lined up straight in line with the aiming point. I think if I was compensating to the side on the shot by even 1/4 of an inch, I'd be able to tell, or I would be missing shots by that much all the time.
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What's more likely - 1) every major pool book, every major pool teacher, and the principles of physics are all wrong about how deflection works or 2) you are making subconscious adjustments in your delivery?
 
hang-the-9 said:
Not sure I see how you got over an inch of deflection with the shafts, I played with a Revo for months, and there is no way I was compensating more than 1/4th of an inch on even table length spin shots. If the shafts actually deflected that much, we would all look like Bustamante aiming past the ball even with low deflection, the end chart shows 2 inches for a 12.4 Revo, same shaft I used for a long time, that means I would be aiming to totally miss the ball when using side to have it come back 2 inches the other way, I have never done that, aim pretty much full on.

I use the same test, or what looks like it, and using the best LD shafts I can hit a ball just about full in the face to 1/8th inch off against the end rail from the spot with as much spin as I can get on the ball at almost any speed. With a shaft like the 314 or an OB1 Pro, I hit the ball about half way from center, which is not even an inch. Only time I miss the full ball was using standard shafts, which would be 1.25 inches or more from center (1/2 of the ball). When I tried this with many LD shafts, from the Players HXT 12.75mm, which is probably the highest deflection LD shaft, to the Revo, the difference was about 1" shooting from the spot to end rail from least to greatest deflection. I line up on the cueball even with the spin, so my bridge and back hand are about an inch off center, and aim straight at the same point on the object ball, so basically line up center to center, then move to the side a bit for the spin amount I want to use, maintaining the same cue line to the object ball, keeping the cue parallel to the center line.

Another test my son likes to do is hit a straight shot with spin and try to play a stop shot where the cueball just sits in place spinning. I know he does not aim anywhere near 1 inch off the normal center line even with max spin where the cueball spins for 8+ seconds.
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A couple of things. I've typically gotten less deflection than Dr. Dave. Using pure front hand English, I'm probably aiming the cue about 2" from the line of the shot at the other end of the table. Depending on whether the ball is hit flat, high, or low, and the friction of the cloth will change how much the cue ball swerves back towards the line of the shot, as will cue elevation. The Olhaussens like Dr. Dave has have the tops of the rails lower than most tables, the top of the cushion is level and the rail is flush with that, probably about 1/4" lower than a GC. Also, the point of contact between balls moves half as much as the offset. A half ball hit requires the cue ball to be aimed 1 1/8" from center for the contact point to move 9/16" from center. missing the ball entirely means the center of the cue ball is 2 1/4" from the center of the object ball.
 
pwd72s said:
What did I gather from this? Mainly, that all shafts deflect. They deflect more at high speed than slow. Carbon fiber deflects less than wood.
My general conclusion is that a player wanting to improve his game should pick a shaft that gives him a good feel and feedback. In other words, look for his own "sweet hit". Once he finds that, do not change shafts hoping a different one will deflect less...stick with the same shaft, and practice until it's deflection is 2nd nature to you. Carbon fiber's main advantage, other than it's wear & tear toughness, should be in consistency of deflection between shafts of the same specs, while wood shafts would vary because of the nature of the material. Even Maple taken from the same area of the tree would have differences in cell structure, grain pattern, etc.

Superb work, Dr. Dave...Thank you.
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Thank you, and you’re welcome. FYI, I summarize advantages of carbon fiber and LD shafts here:

 
As has been pointed out, people who are getting different results are probably not using pure parallel English with the entire cue shifted perfectly sideways from the center-ball position. That’s why I recommend the marked ball and paper on the rail with the black lines to help ensure the cue is in the parallel-offset position. It is also important to have the cue as level as possible. Different cloths will also affect results some. The cloth on my table is Simonis 860HR.
 
Just have to say one thing here: Carbon-fiber does not automatically mean a shaft is low-deflection. CF shafts can be made to be standard, mid and low-deflection. Most of the pool cf shafts now available are lo-defl. to some degree but it varies quite a bit from brand to brand. I just had to toss this in because i hear all the time that if a shaft is cf it has to be lo-deflect. Not so.
 
Thanks Dr. Dave! Informative indeed.
I play with a very ld 12.9mm Predator Vantage wood shaft with a Triangle tip.
I also own a 12.9 Revo that I tried with both the stock Predator soft tip, then a Triangle-- gave it about 6 months, then went back to my Vantage shaft, just couldn't get used to the loss of "feel" compared to wood shafts.
My observation (thru 40 years of playing at a high level) is that soft tips are MUCH LESS FORGIVING than hard tips when it comes to cueing the cue ball.
Using a soft tip is like a pro computer gamer trying to play with an overly sensitive mouse (my son is a "ranked" gamer btw).
Soft tips grip (via compression and greater surface contact area) the cue ball better than harder tips, meaning that any stroke errors get magnified-- especially on slower speed shots. (Watch Alex Pagulayan's recent YouTube video "What's in the Bag?", he explains why he uses different sticks for different types of games)
A slightly off-center mistaken cue tip strike made with a soft tip will impart MORE erroneous spin to the cue ball, throwing the object ball off course more than a hard tip would-- in which the cue ball just "bounces" off the harder tip with LESS erroneous spin.
In a nutshell, since hard tips are compressed less (the tip slides off easier) when they contact the cue ball, they are less sensitive to minor stroking errors, hence making accurate shooting easier and more consistent. Harder tips also make all shorter (most common) top and draw shots, and all "throw" (right or left english) shots easier to dial-in and be consistent with.
This would also explain the lower deflection you got too imo.

Also, it has been my experience that the wider tips make shooting even easier due to the larger "sweet spot".

I've tried everything over the past several decades, but I have never shot more accurately and consistently than with my 12.9mm, Triangle-tipped Vantage shaft. (Good luck trying to find a non-Predator-joint Vantage shaft in stock atm btw lol)
Everything else is just too overly sensitive for me.
 
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I shoot with my Official Red Ryder Carbine action 20 ounce range model pool cue with a compass in the butt. I'll shoot your eyes out!!
 
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Personally I don’t really care how much shafts deflect the cue ball.
It’s so easy to compensate for it that and one can learn it in a few minutes or hours with a new shaft and be fine.
I care more about the feel of the hit, feel of the shaft, width, taper and weight.
Those are not so easy to change.
I would never quantify a shaft as being good or bad based on how much the cueball deflects.
I know this is a deflect test but I wanted to say this anyway.
 
Woodshaft said:
Thanks Dr. Dave! Informative indeed.
I play with a very ld 12.9mm Predator Vantage wood shaft with a Triangle tip.
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Have you used a 314? If you have how do you compare the feel of the larger shaft?
I like the 314 but I miss having a little more diameter that I have with some of my solid maple, maybe a little less pro and little more conical. Thinking of trying one of those.
 
dr_dave said:
As has been pointed out, people who are getting different results are probably not using pure parallel English with the entire cue shifted perfectly sideways from the center-ball position. That’s why I recommend the marked ball and paper on the rail with the black lines to help ensure the cue is in the parallel-offset position. It is also important to have the cue as level as possible. Different cloths will also affect results some. The cloth on my table is Simonis 860HR.
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That's how I did it, even line to the same contact point on the far end. I used the spot to line up the shaft, to the far left or right of the spot. Maybe I just have a really bad stoke LOL
 
9Ballr said:
Personally I don’t really care how much shafts deflect the cue ball.
It’s so easy to compensate for it that and one can learn it in a few minutes or hours with a new shaft and be fine.
I care more about the feel of the hit, feel of the shaft, width, taper and weight.
Those are not so easy to change.
I would never quantify a shaft as being good or bad based on how much the cueball deflects.
I know this is a deflect test but I wanted to say this anyway.
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No one is able to adjust to a new shaft and play nearly as good in a few hours, I don't think even the pro players would call it easy. A few of them said they take a couple of months to get used to a new shaft in interviews. A shaft needs to combine not just hit feel but also deflection one can aim with well, the point of a shaft is to make the ball, the nice feeling is secondary to that. It's like food, the main goal is for nutrition, tasting and looking nice to us is secondary. You get hungry enough you will eat a lot of things LOL
 
skip100 said:
What's more likely - 1) every major pool book, every major pool teacher, and the principles of physics are all wrong about how deflection works or 2) you are making subconscious adjustments in your delivery?
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Or the speed is just right so swerve cancels deflection (squirt).
 
dr_dave said:
As has been pointed out, people who are getting different results are probably not using pure parallel English with the entire cue shifted perfectly sideways from the center-ball position. That’s why I recommend the marked ball and paper on the rail with the black lines to help ensure the cue is in the parallel-offset position. It is also important to have the cue as level as possible. Different cloths will also affect results some. The cloth on my table is Simonis 860HR.
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I was just going to say that. Front hand English, back hand english, or a combination of the two will throw off the test results.
 
dendweller said:
Have you used a 314? If you have how do you compare the feel of the larger shaft?
I like the 314 but I miss having a little more diameter that I have with some of my solid maple, maybe a little less pro and little more conical. Thinking of trying one of those.
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I have. The Vantage is stiffer and has less deflection imo. I prefer a stiff cue (i pair with Joss/Schon butts).
Pro player Ralf Souquet shot for years with a 314 but has recently switched to a Vantage. Seems to play faster (more confidently) now with it.
 
BRussell said:
How do you compensate for deflection when you play? And then what do you do differently when you do your deflection testing? When you’ve shot a million shots and the compensation is so ingrained, I think it’s tough to just entirely turn that off.

I’m not trying to be argumentative with you, I just know that I’ve been through the same thought process until I realized I wasn’t doing what I thought I was doing. Also, Dr Dave’s findings seem pretty close to what others find (here’s an example:
).
Click to expand...

I look at the shot and move where I'm trying to hit if I think I need more or less hehe, nothing fancy, just feel. But when I was testing deflection I was not trying to adjust, just hit straight. I'll have to have some others try things out with the shafts and see what they see, it's just a bit odd to say the revo defelcts by 2 inches when I aim it almost full, but others that do deflect 2 inches like a house cue I aim off by that 2 inches and get the same result.
 
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