solidifying vision fundamentals/the eyes

[evergruven]

was playing the other day, and it occurred that I should consider my eyes more
on the shot I know I start with my eyes on the cb, and end with my eyes on the ob
beyond that I confess I don't really have a routine, I just kind of go with the flow
wondering what you all think is a good way to ferret out a good vision routine?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think PBIA instructors teach a technique for that. A well known one, Randy Goettlicher, posts here.

goettlicher

forums.azbilliards.com

pj
chgo

 

[BlueRaider]

One thing that has helped me is to change simply "looking" at the OB into "gazing" at it as Mark Wilson puts it.

That goes along with Dr. Dave's advice of having "quiet eyes."

Watch how Mark Wilson breaks down Landon Shuffett's pre-shot routine:

The visual confirmation he describes is so incredibly important. My game got a lot better when I started spending more time looking (or gazing) at the OB than the CB (verifying tip position is still important, of course).

In my experience, the visual confirmation that comes when you really let your eyes and brain process your alignment and the shot picture leads to a straighter (or simply more confident, which often equates to straighter) stroke.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

was playing the other day, and it occurred that I should consider my eyes more
on the shot I know I start with my eyes on the cb, and end with my eyes on the ob
beyond that I confess I don't really have a routine, I just kind of go with the flow
wondering what you all think is a good way to ferret out a good vision routine?

Lock in powerful aim estimates and skills:

1) Stand erect behind the "full line", the line of centers between c.b. and o.b., ignoring the pocket for now--DO NOT stand with one foot forward getting ready to bend to shoot, stand feet together at the heels and toes, navel and nose and sternum on the FULL line

2) Do this for every shot and you create an absolute frame of reference for aim--meaning day-to-day, aim always looks the same to begin--now assess the contact point or fraction or ghost ball or whatever you do to aim, while still standing with your body centered on the full line of centers

3) Step into the full stance--you need not eye the target the whole time, indeed, you want to look away at the cue ball or something and refresh/reacquire the target spot in the final, completed stance

4) Use "quiet eyes"--a near unblinking, relaxed gaze, at least two seconds, on the whole ball in general--either before your final stroke after the final practice stroke or at the end of your backswing if you pause fully before the final forward stroke--most players are fidgeting with the cue and moving their eyes all over before they stroke instead--pros NEVER, EVER do so

Any player using 1-4 will improve their pocketing ability hugely, whatever aim system or aim intuition they use--their sighting will improve and their body position for the final stance will improve also.

Do this system and please report back here on your improvement--or lack of improvement and I'll follow up with you here.

 

[Bob Jewett]

was playing the other day, and it occurred that I should consider my eyes more
on the shot I know I start with my eyes on the cb, and end with my eyes on the ob
beyond that I confess I don't really have a routine, I just kind of go with the flow
wondering what you all think is a good way to ferret out a good vision routine?

Please describe the parts of your shot routine if you do one consciously.

 

[dquarasr]

2) Do this for every shot and you create an absolute frame of reference for aim--meaning day-to-day, aim always looks the same to begin--now assess the contact point or fraction or ghost ball or whatever you do to aim, while still standing with your body centered on the full line of centers

Matt, you know I appreciate the time you spent with me a few months ago, and again, I thank you for it, but I'll have to offer a different opinion.

While I understand that this alignment and aiming technique works for some of your students, I tried this and found that for me, at least, it only worked for very shallow angle shots.

I use ghost ball to aim. I find that aligning to the exact shot line, that is, center of the CB to the center of the ghost ball (NOT the center of the OB), results in NO need to make any adjustments to reconcile the difference between the CB center-to-OB center and the shot line. If I am off, and I cannot remedy the cue position with extremely small micro-adjustments, I'll stand back up and start over. Even then, I try to never need any micro-adjustments.

I hope I explained that clearly.

Disclaimer: APA SL6/5 in 8/9, and NOT an instructor.

 

[sparkle84]

I use ghost ball to aim. I find that aligning to the exact shot line, that is, center of the CB to the center of the ghost ball (NOT the center of the OB), results in NO need to make any adjustments to reconcile the difference between the CB center-to-OB center and the shot line. If I am off, and I cannot remedy the cue position with extremely small micro-adjustments, I'll stand back up and start over. Even then, I try to never need any micro-adjustments.

Maybe I'm not correctly and/or fully understanding what you're saying here. Are you saying that if someone was holding a ball against the OB lined up to the pocket (we've all done this to teach aiming to beginners) that you then aim the CB straight at that ball? That seems to be what you're saying but I'm not sure.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...a ball against the OB lined up to the pocket...?

Yes, that visualized cue ball is the "ghost ball".

But to be really accurate for cut shots, it usually has to be lined up slightly off the OB/pocket line to account for throw.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

Yes, that visualized cue ball is the "ghost ball".

But to be really accurate for cut shots, it usually has to be lined up slightly off the OB/pocket line to account for throw.

pj
chgo

What's the angle range where throw adjustments have to be made? I'm thinking shots between 35 and 45 degrees but I don't know for sure. Do you or Bob have an exact range? Have you come up with a formula as to how much to adjust?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What's the angle range where throw adjustments have to be made? I'm thinking shots between 35 and 45 degrees but I don't know for sure. Do you or Bob have an exact range? Have you come up with a formula as to how much to adjust?

It depends on things like speed and CB rotation, but as a benchmark I think maximum "pure" cut induced throw (no sidespin) happens with a stun hit at a half ball cut (30°) and generates about 5° of throw.

Dr. Dave has lots more:

Maximum Throw - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

Answers to frequently-asked questions about the maximum amount pool balls can be thrown.

billiards.colostate.edu

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

It depends on things like speed and CB rotation, but as a benchmark I think maximum "pure" cut induced throw (no sidespin) happens with a stun hit at a half ball cut (30°) and generates about 5° of throw.

Dr. Dave has lots more:

Maximum Throw - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

Answers to frequently-asked questions about the maximum amount pool balls can be thrown.

billiards.colostate.edu

pj
chgo

Ok Thanks, but I was just looking for something more clear, like a diagram of cut angles at the same distance to the pocket, and the amount of throw for soft, medium and hard hits on those angles. Once we have that information, then we can create a formula for aim and/or side spin adjustments.

 

[tomatoshooter]

was playing the other day, and it occurred that I should consider my eyes more
on the shot I know I start with my eyes on the cb, and end with my eyes on the ob
beyond that I confess I don't really have a routine, I just kind of go with the flow
wondering what you all think is a good way to ferret out a good vision routine?

I learned to aim standing up, I know exactly where I want the cue ball to be when it hits the object ball. Then, get down on the shot with the tip as close to the cue ball as reasonable. I like to look back and forth between the object ball, or more precisely the spot where the cue ball will be when it hits the object ball, just to let my eyes focus at the two distances. Looking at the tip and cue ball, I draw back, shifting my eyes to the object ball. I bring the cue forward on a practice stroke, stopping just short of the cue ball and shifting my eyes back to the cue ball and tip of cue. I repeat this for three practice strokes. On my actual stroke, I move my eyes to the object ball on the backswing again and hold them there while I complete my forward stroke and follow through.

The instructor had me doing the three practice strokes and final shot to a metronome. It took me a while to get used to it, usually if a shot feels weird, you miss. I am sticking with the principle but I am experimenting with a pause and then a slower final backstroke.

The quiet eye concept is powerful stuff, too. I think these things synchronize and calibrate our eyes and hands.

No pool, but sometimes the concepts come across better when we see them applied to something different:

 

[evergruven]

I think PBIA instructors teach a technique for that. A well known one, Randy Goettlicher, posts here.

hey pat, izzat SPF? I recently reached out to a local pbia instructor, will bring that up if we connect

In my experience, the visual confirmation that comes when you really let your eyes and brain process your alignment and the shot picture leads to a straighter (or simply more confident, which often equates to straighter) stroke.

appreciate this, and thanks for the links..I watched that mark wilson bit when it came out, but it's good to see it again

1) ...DO NOT stand with one foot forward getting ready to bend to shoot, stand feet together at the heels and toes, navel and nose and sternum on the FULL line

gibes. and I think I generally do this, but it's good to see it written out..I will practice this more consciously
good stuff..and thanks for breaking things down the way you did, another mention of the "gaze," I like it!

Please describe the parts of your shot routine if you do one consciously.

bob, I typically spend a good chuck of time upright/until I feel decisive about what/how I want to shoot
when I'm down, and my view changes/I get more info., I often fidget with my body until I feel good
I know this isn't ideal, so I've been trying to get up off the shot when I don't feel good, then go down again
when I'm down and my mind/body feels good about the shot, I'm exact about where I place my tip
I warm up stroke, 5-10 times, look at my tip and pause, then something happens with my eyes and I shoot

inspired by this thread, I want to try the same, but after looking at my tip and pausing, consciously moving my eyes to the ob- thoughts?

I learned to aim standing up, I know exactly where I want the cue ball to be when it hits the object ball. Then, get down on the shot with the tip as close to the cue ball as reasonable. I like to look back and forth between the object ball, or more precisely the spot where the cue ball will be when it hits the object ball, just to let my eyes focus at the two distances. Looking at the tip and cue ball, I draw back, shifting my eyes to the object ball. I bring the cue forward on a practice stroke, stopping just short of the cue ball and shifting my eyes back to the cue ball and tip of cue. I repeat this for three practice strokes. On my actual stroke, I move my eyes to the object ball on the backswing again and hold them there while I complete my forward stroke and follow through.

whew, I admire your effort^_^ so, is this a pattern that was developed for you? how conscious are you of this process?

thanks, and thanks all!

 

[tomatoshooter]

whew, I admire your effort^_^ so, is this a pattern that was developed for you? how conscious are you of this process?

The pattern was taught to me, I'm sure it has worked for many others, it's not custom. After a few months it becomes subconscious. I'm still fine tuning it, I believe many techniques should be tailored to the individual, and even adjusted further as the individual develops. Just practice looking back and forth as you take your practice strokes. Do the Mighty X and incorporate it into your process. When I first got it right, I felt like the first guy to put sights on his rifle. It's strange when you sink balls and you don't feel confident because the process feels so strange at first. Like, usually the slightest doubt is enough to make me miss.

I've seem a few other things about eye patterns, this may be slightly different but I don't think they contradict. Just slightly different ways to get to the same place, but they all share some core concepts.

 

[FranCrimi]

First: Trust what you see when you're standing because when you're down, it will look different. So do all of your visualizing and imaging when you're standing. When you're down, it's all about accomplishing what you saw when you were standing --- getting the cb to the point of contact on the ob that you determined while standing.

If you're aiming the shot for the first time when you're down, you're mainly guessing due to the difference in perspective.

Bobbing your head up and down repeatedly started from lack of trust in what you saw when you were standing and then became a bad habit that you trained your unconscious mind to do. Your unconscious mind does not know right from wrong. It only knows what it has been taught, so you will continue to do that until you break that habit.

(Also since you don't have an approach routine, you may be adjusting your feet as you bob your head up and down. This step takes you out of order in setting up for the shot. At that point your feet should already have been planted, and it detracts from what you're supposed to be doing at that point.)

As you're getting down into shooting position, you should still be looking at your ob aim point, whether it's a ghost ball point behind the object ball or somewhere else, depending on how you aim, and secure your bridge hand immediately on that line. This is why it's so important to trust what you saw while standing.

Once you've secured your bridge hand, then you can safely look back and forth between the cb and ob at whatever pattern you prefer and tweak your alignment. If your alignment requires more than just a tweak, then you have to stand completely up and start your approach from scratch.

Some players like to move their eyes back and forth with each practice stroke. Mizerak was a good example of a player who did that. I've tried it and it makes me a bit dizzy. I prefer to take a few strokes, then stop at the cue ball and look back and forth a few times from the shaft to the ob point of contact and repeat as needed.

At the final pause at the cb, I take a last look back and forth and then stay focused on the ob throughout the final back and forth stroke.

 

[evergruven]

First: Trust what you see when you're standing because when you're down, it will look different. So do all of your visualizing and imaging when you're standing. When you're down, it's all about accomplishing what you saw when you were standing --- getting the cb to the point of contact on the ob that you determined while standing.

If you're aiming the shot for the first time when you're down, you're mainly guessing due to the difference in perspective.

Bobbing your head up and down repeatedly started from lack of trust in what you saw when you were standing and then became a bad habit that you trained your unconscious mind to do. Your unconscious mind does not know right from wrong. It only knows what it has been taught, so you will continue to do that until you break that habit.

(Also since you don't have an approach routine, you may be adjusting your feet as you bob your head up and down. This step takes you out of order in setting up for the shot. At that point your feet should already have been planted, and it detracts from what you're supposed to be doing at that point.)

thanks fran. I'd like to feel comfortable enough to just go down on the shot with my feet and all right ready to go
I just rarely feel that right out the gate..and if it doesn't feel right, I move. but I agree it's a good thing to strive for
and I do aim standing up, but when I get down on the shot, the perspective is different- it's a different view
I think part of the reason I move around a bit is because I've got new information, so I move with that new info.
but obviously I don't *need* to do what I'm doing- I just need to figure out how to get what I need without doing it
I'm going to try to do a better job of aiming while standing up, try some different things and see what happens-

 

[sparkle84]

Yes, that visualized cue ball is the "ghost ball".

But to be really accurate for cut shots, it usually has to be lined up slightly off the OB/pocket line to account for throw.

pj
chgo

I'm well aware of what the GB is and it's limitations. The reason I'm asking him this is because if he is aiming dead straight at the GB then he'd be missing quite often. If not missing much then he's not hitting where he's aiming or is making a subconscious adjustment or something else is happening. It would probably be beneficial for him to know exactly what's happening.
While the GB method is a great tool for novice players to begin understanding the concept of aiming, once one gets to where Doug is at it's not all that practical. It's a nice guideline and that's about it.
I see people all the time putting their tip a 1/2 ball behind the OB pointing at the pocket then pivoting back to the CB while keeping there tip in place. Then what? Then they have to raise their stick, step back, get down in their stance and address the CB with the tip. I'd submit that that point out there in space by the OB may be somewhat elusive to reacquire. It may give some people confidence they're aiming correctly and I suppose that's good but it's just a crutch and not a very good one.
If I see someone that seems serious about getting better doing that, I may try to subtly discourage them from doing it. It provides a false sense of security that doesn't really exist. Just my .02.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Allison Fisher has a very consistent "eye pattern" during her shot sequence. At the end it seems to always be:

tip stopped at cue ball and eyes on cue ball
cue is drawn back slowly to the back of the backstroke
pause starts
eyes transition to the object ball
pause ends
cue stick comes forward on the power stroke

 

[Patrick Johnson]

While the GB method is a great tool for novice players to begin understanding the concept of aiming, once one gets to where Doug is at it's not all that practical. It's a nice guideline and that's about it.

Like pretty much every aiming method - it's an easy-to-find starting point for your final "refinement by feel". In fact, ghost ball starts you closer to the final aim line than other methods.

pj
chgo

 

[dquarasr]

thanks fran. I'd like to feel comfortable enough to just go down on the shot with my feet and all right ready to go
I just rarely feel that right out the gate..and if it doesn't feel right, I move. but I agree it's a good thing to strive for
and I do aim standing up, but when I get down on the shot, the perspective is different- it's a different view
I think part of the reason I move around a bit is because I've got new information, so I move with that new info.
but obviously I don't *need* to do what I'm doing- I just need to figure out how to get what I need without doing it
I'm going to try to do a better job of aiming while standing up, try some different things and see what happens-

I’ve noticed that some of the best shooters, e.g. Gorst and Filler, are very deliberate transitioning from standing to crouching with respect to bringing the cue and head down on the shot line. I try to emulate that, so my perspective seems not to change much if I am deliberate.

While the GB method is a great tool for novice players to begin understanding the concept of aiming, once one gets to where Doug is at it's not all that practical. It's a nice guideline and that's about it.
…..

It may give some people confidence they're aiming correctly and I suppose that's good but it's just a crutch and not a very good one.
If I see someone that seems serious about getting better doing that, I may try to subtly discourage them from doing it. It provides a false sense of security that doesn't really exist. Just my .02.

Can you please elaborate and provide supporting evidence that GB is limiting? I understood that many highly accomplished pros use GB. (No, Fran, I cannot name them offhand so please don’t ask me to.). I seem to have no trouble using GB and “seeing” the shot. Execution with respect to delivering the cue is always a work in progress, but not aiming so much.