solidifying vision fundamentals/the eyes

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's a bizarre way of teaching but I've seen stranger things. At least the information is good information. Is he taking players money for this or is he just helping for free?
The strangest I've seen.... The student flew in specially for lessons from about 500 miles away. His fundamentals were such that a four-foot (total length) straight in was less than a 50-50 proposition. Think spasm rather than stroke. The teacher was showing him how to aim off-angle banks. Not surprisingly, the student wasn't making many in spite trying hard.

That was what the student had asked to learn, evidently. He seemed OK with how the lessons were unfolding.

You can't fault the teacher for showing they guy what he asked for except that most of what the teacher was saying was hogwash.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
It's a bizarre way of teaching but I've seen stranger things. At least the information is good information. Is he taking players money for this or is he just helping for free?
I've only seen it done for free with my own eyes, which is why I don't want to name drop. You get what you pay for and all... 🤷‍♂️
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
It can be a pretty reliable way to "measure" the amount of cross-table angle change you get. In my experience 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 of maximum tip offset pretty accurately gives 1, 2 and 3 diamonds of cross-table change. VP4 agrees...

pj
chgo

View attachment 697793
It's not bad info, but would it be something you would teach someone who needs help with basic fundamentals?
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You did. Difficult to understand the animosity being displayed.
I will be happy to explain to you sparkle. I never wrote that confidence comes from having physical talent. In fact, maybe you've seen as I have, talented players with a lot of potential who don't go far. As a teacher, I've come across a fair share like that who had low self esteem which hindered their ability to cultivate their talent successfully, even with coaching. So talent does not guarantee you confidence. Confidence is a personality trait, regardless of physical talent. As Bob Jewett wrote, It's possible that a particular frame of mind is talent within itself. I think he may be right.

On the opposite end, some people have confidence but very little or no physical talent, but they do alright for themselves because they work hard, deal well with little failures that go along with learning, and maximize their skills.

As for the animosity, I don't take kindly to being trolled. It's a no-win situation engaging with trollers who are relentless, so I won't engage other than to say I disagree.
 
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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On the opposite end, some people have confidence but very little or no physical talent, but they do alright for themselves because they work hard, deal well with little failures that go along with learning, and maximize their skills.

just had a related convo with a pal. he said we all have a single gift and our purpose is to identify, and pursue it
I told him I think it's a sweet idea, but disagreed and told him why, including the reason that you allude to here:
there are too many folks who started/start with little more than passion for something, and end up "succeeding"
in quotes because success is more relative than it's absolute, and that's ok. it could mean being a world champ
it could also mean unlocking/improving knowledge or a skill, or even just getting to continue to do what you love.
I think being able to find passion for something, anything- is a gift in itself. and I think that's a gift we share here.

in that spirit, fran, if there are trolls, let their typing fingers cramp up in vain. but who in this thread is trolling you?
 

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Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The strangest I've seen.... The student flew in specially for lessons from about 500 miles away. His fundamentals were such that a four-foot (total length) straight in was less than a 50-50 proposition. Think spasm rather than stroke. The teacher was showing him how to aim off-angle banks. Not surprisingly, the student wasn't making many in spite trying hard.

That was what the student had asked to learn, evidently. He seemed OK with how the lessons were unfolding.

You can't fault the teacher for showing they guy what he asked for except that most of what the teacher was saying was hogwash.
Ooops...I could fault the teacher. The teacher should have had a better mutual understanding of the students needs. It's like a doctor writing a prescription before understanding the the patients needs. Sorry Bob, I have utmost respect for your input.
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
I will be happy to explain to you sparkle. I never wrote that confidence comes from having physical talent. In fact, maybe you've seen as I have, talented players with a lot of potential who don't go far. As a teacher, I've come across a fair share like that who had low self esteem which hindered their ability to cultivate their talent successfully, even with coaching. So talent does not guarantee you confidence. Confidence is a personality trait, regardless of physical talent. As Bob Jewett wrote, It's possible that a particular frame of mind is talent within itself. I think he may be right.

On the opposite end, some people have confidence but very little or no physical talent, but they do alright for themselves because they work hard, deal well with little failures that go along with learning, and maximize their skills.

As for the animosity, I don't take kindly to being trolled. It's a no-win situation engaging with trollers who are relentless, so I won't engage other than to say I disagree.
how in the world are u labeling me a troller. The only reason I had to be 'relentless' in our last disagreement was because you kept doubling down and digging in on a position that was absurdly out of line on your part where you attacked another coach and called anyone who agreed with him a fool when his statement was 100% right. If you just conceded right away you misread something or were simply in the wrong, there would be no further interaction. But you didn't. You kept getting personal and twisting words and then arguing against the statements you put in people's mouths as if either deliberately misreading them or just trying to slither out of conceding you were dead wrong. It could not stand. So ye, I kept shutting down your lame attempts to justify what you wrote and kept stressing the info Matt presented was correct. Which you seemed to have issue with till it was pointed out to you that THE ONLY WAY eyes will be even with one another is if the face is square...something that seemed to confuse you for whatever reason. At that point your 'argument' was dead...even tho to everyone else it was dead on arrival and you were just last to find out.

Call me a troll? Really? I didn't even want to get involved in that mess but felt I had to once you started labeling accurate info as garbage people would be fools to follow just because you don't like the source the info came from. If anything you were the one behaving like a troll. Or at least a petty stubborn fool that couldn't ever admit she was wrong so just made a ton of posts and wasted a bunch of everyone's time destroying her own reputation in the process. But don't worry, I won't quote your posts anymore even when I think you're right. Next you'll hear from me is when you are as absurdly wrong as last time.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
just had a related convo with a pal. he said we all have a single gift and our purpose is to identify, and pursue it
I told him I think it's a sweet idea, but disagreed and told him why, including the reason that you allude to here:
there are too many folks who started/start with little more than passion for something, and end up "succeeding"
in quotes because success is more relative than it's absolute, and that's ok. it could mean being a world champ
it could also mean unlocking/improving knowledge or a skill, or even just getting to continue to do what you love.
I think being able to find passion for something, anything- is a gift in itself. and I think that's a gift we share here.

in that spirit, fran, if there are trolls, let their typing fingers cramp up in vain. but who in this thread is trolling you?
That's a very good point and passion and confidence go together, where confidence is needed to pursue your passion and face the ups and downs that go with the pursuit.

No worries about the trolling thing, and thanks for asking. I'll deal with it my way.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The strangest I've seen.... The student flew in specially for lessons from about 500 miles away. His fundamentals were such that a four-foot (total length) straight in was less than a 50-50 proposition. Think spasm rather than stroke. The teacher was showing him how to aim off-angle banks. Not surprisingly, the student wasn't making many in spite trying hard.

That was what the student had asked to learn, evidently. He seemed OK with how the lessons were unfolding.

You can't fault the teacher for showing they guy what he asked for except that most of what the teacher was saying was hogwash.
My biggest dilemma as I was working on my own pool game on my way to becoming a player, was who to listen to. I was either going to school full time or working full time and my practice time was precious to me. So, being led astray by a well-intended person with bad information was my biggest fear --- and there were and still are plenty of them out there.

So after being led astray on multiple occasions, I decided to make competition my gauge. If that person who showed me something could use it successfully under pressure in competition, or show me someone who did, I would accept the information.

To this day, with very few exceptions, anyone coming to me wanting to become a PBIA instructor has to be willing to play a competitive match against me. Not that I'm asking them to beat me or looking to beat them. They have to show that they actually do what they preach. I also ask new instructors to stay competitive so they don't get led astray themselves by bad information and then pass that on to other players. It's not a foolproof system, but it helps.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
good timing for me to have a little insight on this, student's perspective/follow up:

while I'd considered this thread weeks ago, I wasn't able to get on a table until yesterday
due to personal conflicts, my buddy and I hadn't been able to play our weekly game
but I've had pool stuff stewing around in my head, including the vision stuff
my goal was to play the whole session ob last with the eyes..never done it before

a wrinkle is that I also decided I would change my grip to incorporate my whole hand
usually, I mostly grip with my thumb, index and middle finger, loosely
but it occurred to me recently that I could maybe straighten out my kinetic chain by adding fingers
my elbow occasionally flares out sometimes when I stroke, maybe incidentally, not sure
my thought was that if I got more fingers on the cue, that would straighten out my wrist, and so on
just an idea- maybe that's a thread in itself, but anyway, I thought I'd try it

I also tried to keep my back foot more consistently perpendicular than I usually do
so, a few things at once. the back foot thing wasn't a big change tho, since I've been doing it
before playing, it did seem like a lot to do, but it actually wasn't too bad
if it had felt like too much, I would have been glad to slow down

my eye "pattern" was:
sight the shot while up, then down, confirm aim, pause at the cb, then move my eyes to the ob, shoot
and it seemed to work well enough. there were a few moments where my timing felt off
but overall, it felt ok. and I feel good that I could trust my stroke enough to look away from the cb
one thing I realize in retrospect was difficult for me shooting ob last, is long shots
I missed a few, and feelings of being "off" were magnified shooting from distance
but I can work on that. it kind of makes sense to me that those shots would be difficult.

stroke-wise (grip hand), it felt ok, too- still had the loose grip, just more coverage from the fingers
and did my alignment change? I don't know. will have to review the video
even tho we played a few hours, I couldn't really tell that I was shooting more/less straight
I'll have to try this stuff out by myself on some exercise shots to see more detail

conclusions:
I can shoot ob last. is it the way to go? not sure- but I'm going to pursue it, if only to get the experience
even tho I changed a few things in my game, I still played well overall. would say a handful more misses
and I had some nice runs, too. think this gives credence to letting the subconscious do some of the work
otherwise, I'm glad to be on a track that I think will teach me more about the game and my place in it
thanks again all-
Are you using "quiet eyes" for a few seconds after you shift to the o.b. before you stroke?
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are you using "quiet eyes" for a few seconds after you shift to the o.b. before you stroke?

meaning, do I let my gaze catch details that will subconsciously aid me?
if that's the question, the answer is..a bit? but I'm more aware of the idea now, thanks to your question
I do pause for a good second I think, so I'm catching something, just not sure what, honestly
I feel I have a lot of good experience to work with, good parts with the eyes, etc.-
but the process of putting them together is raw.
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
meaning, do I let my gaze catch details that will subconsciously aid me?
if that's the question, the answer is..a bit? but I'm more aware of the idea now, thanks to your question
I do pause for a good second I think, so I'm catching something, just not sure what, honestly
I feel I have a lot of good experience to work with, good parts with the eyes, etc.-
but the process of putting them together is raw.

currently digging around this page: https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/eyes/quiet/

also got this advice from dr. dave, apologies if anybody's already mentioned it, but I'm registering this now
"A very important part of the pre-shot routine is to focus on the OB target as you come down into your stance."
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
meaning, do I let my gaze catch details that will subconsciously aid me?
if that's the question, the answer is..a bit? but I'm more aware of the idea now, thanks to your question
I do pause for a good second I think, so I'm catching something, just not sure what, honestly
I feel I have a lot of good experience to work with, good parts with the eyes, etc.-
but the process of putting them together is raw.
Not quite. Pros in many ball/target sports pause significantly, attaining heightened focus, before shooting. Think of a basketballers shooting a foul. The last thing he or she does is pause, gazing at the whole basket/backboard for two seconds (a LONG pause, much longer than most pool shooters are used to) and THEN they shoot for the basket.

A good "quiet eyes two seconds" in pool can cause your stroke to be almost automated!
 
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