Stroke Analysis - Doug Quara

[dquarasr]

Reminds me of Bob's story of the guy who had terrible fundamentals and couldn't deliver the cue consistently but was getting lessons on off angle banks. Obv, it did him little good to know how to hit them since his technique was so bad he couldn't actually deliver the ball where he wanted. Don't be that guy.

^^^^ THIS!!

Maybe I'm not remembering it correctly, but when I first moved to Central Florida and set up my table, I got serious about learning the game. I scheduled a lesson with a certified instructor. I explained that I wanted to learn how make balls and explained some of the challenges I faced. I had recognized early on in this renewed interest in the game that basic shot-making was the foundation upon which the rest of the game is built. Maybe that's not the right approach. I dunno. But innings end if the shot is missed, I figured.

Regardless, the lesson was scheduled for an hour. IIRC, we spent about 10 minutes on my shot-making. I don't specifically recall what we actually covered, whether it was stance, alignment, aim, or other stroke skills, but I do remember that the remaining 50 minutes followed a seemingly "one-size-fits-all formula": speed control drills, aiming systems, banking, etc. I also sort of remember that the instructor seemed uncomfortable in the first 10 minutes, then settled in when he covered the topics HE wanted to cover.

I so regret not taking advantage of Scott Lee while he was still with us. RIP, Scott.

Moral of the story: while it's true that a good instructor can ferret out what a student needs, it is equally important, if not more, to listen to what the student wants to learn.

 

[boogieman]

Your assessment of my skill level is accurate. But I need to get to where I stop missing shots I should make, so often.

I'd look into playing equal offense as a practice game. Start at the lowest challenge level, it's still tough.

The reason I say this, you will be shooting a LOT of balls, in any order. There's a lot of strategy to the game (it's a straight pool derivative), but at the same time you shoot a lot of balls. It really helps shot making, CB control and grooving in your stroke.

IMO (I'm not an instructor) the only way to stop missing shots that you should make more often is to get some reps in at shooting balls and those types of shots. Equal offense will get you putting reps in and you'll soon find your stroke coming out to play.

The only way to groove your stroke in is by stroking balls in. Equal offense has enough balls and you get enough easy shots in a rack to really tune your stroke in. When you get running balls your stroke is there and then it becomes about trusting it and solving the rack.

The game can be frustrating as heck at times but it's a good teacher. You really feel the competition aspect since you're always trying to beat your high score. In solo play, keep track of high score in that session as well as your all time high score.

 

[dquarasr]

Will do. I often warm by throwing all the balls out randomly and seeing if I can run them out. I can usually get out with 1-3 misses and about every 5th try with no misses. Some days more tries needed, some days fewer. Sorta the same thing as equal offense. I like equal offense because it’s easy to measure scores and progress.

 

[dquarasr]

Update: I've recently had what I consider another breakthrough. My confidence level is even higher now.

I started aligning with the tip contact point on the CB about 1/8 to 1/4 tip LEFT of where I perceive the center. And the difference has been a-maz-ing. Apparently, my perception (as I'm sure many players at my skill level may experience) of me placing the cue tip is actually off slightly to the right. I've always struggled with unintended right spin, and I've tried with varying success to quell it, and at times I thought I have cured it. But I'm pretty confident I have found another of my personal "a-ha" moments.

I've been able to pot straight-in shots with much more regularity, even those with some pace. I just shot the spot-to-spot-return-the-CB-to-the-tip drill using this left-of-center perception, and I've hit 10 out of 10 returning the CB to my tip. I've never been able to do that before for more than a couple in a row. I checked it just now by aligning somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 tip left of my perceived center, then carefully laying the cue down on the table. Even though when down on the shot it appears that the tip is left of center, when I check it this way and stand up and objectively look at where the tip is addressing the CB, it's dead center.

I am unsure whether I should change anything so my perception is better. Right now, I'm starting to do run-outs. I've made 4-, 5-, 6-, and 7-ball rotation runouts. My BCA straight pool matches have been pretty good. I'm surprising myself on loooonnngggg shots, even those where I'm jacked up a bit. I think I'll simply go with it.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Ye 10/10 spot shot returns and jacked up long pots are very strong confirmation indeed. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[boogieman]

Update: I've recently had what I consider another breakthrough. My confidence level is even higher now.

I started aligning with the tip contact point on the CB about 1/8 to 1/4 tip LEFT of where I perceive the center. And the difference has been a-maz-ing. Apparently, my perception (as I'm sure many players at my skill level may experience) of me placing the cue tip is actually off slightly to the right. I've always struggled with unintended right spin, and I've tried with varying success to quell it, and at times I thought I have cured it. But I'm pretty confident I have found another of my personal "a-ha" moments.

I've been able to pot straight-in shots with much more regularity, even those with some pace. I just shot the spot-to-spot-return-the-CB-to-the-tip drill using this left-of-center perception, and I've hit 10 out of 10 returning the CB to my tip. I've never been able to do that before for more than a couple in a row. I checked it just now by aligning somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 tip left of my perceived center, then carefully laying the cue down on the table. Even though when down on the shot it appears that the tip is left of center, when I check it this way and stand up and objectively look at where the tip is addressing the CB, it's dead center.

I am unsure whether I should change anything so my perception is better. Right now, I'm starting to do run-outs. I've made 4-, 5-, 6-, and 7-ball rotation runouts. My BCA straight pool matches have been pretty good. I'm surprising myself on loooonnngggg shots, even those where I'm jacked up a bit. I think I'll simply go with it.

I'm not an instructor. I wouldn't change a thing. When you feel like you reach another plateau it's generally a good time to start working on basics. Give your new found info time to get grooved in and enjoy it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I started aligning with the tip contact point on the CB about 1/8 to 1/4 tip LEFT of where I perceive the center. And the difference has been a-maz-ing.

Sounds like you might benefit from moving your head a little to the left or your stick a little to the right (or both).

Have you looked at Dr. Dave's "vision center" info?

Vision Center - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

Answers to frequently-asked questions about how to find your personal 'vision center' in pool.

billiards.colostate.edu

pj
chgo

 

[sparkle84]

Update: I've recently had what I consider another breakthrough. My confidence level is even higher now.

I started aligning with the tip contact point on the CB about 1/8 to 1/4 tip LEFT of where I perceive the center. And the difference has been a-maz-ing. Apparently, my perception (as I'm sure many players at my skill level may experience) of me placing the cue tip is actually off slightly to the right. I've always struggled with unintended right spin, and I've tried with varying success to quell it, and at times I thought I have cured it. But I'm pretty confident I have found another of my personal "a-ha" moments.

I've been able to pot straight-in shots with much more regularity, even those with some pace. I just shot the spot-to-spot-return-the-CB-to-the-tip drill using this left-of-center perception, and I've hit 10 out of 10 returning the CB to my tip. I've never been able to do that before for more than a couple in a row. I checked it just now by aligning somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 tip left of my perceived center, then carefully laying the cue down on the table. Even though when down on the shot it appears that the tip is left of center, when I check it this way and stand up and objectively look at where the tip is addressing the CB, it's dead center.

I am unsure whether I should change anything so my perception is better. Right now, I'm starting to do run-outs. I've made 4-, 5-, 6-, and 7-ball rotation runouts. My BCA straight pool matches have been pretty good. I'm surprising myself on loooonnngggg shots, even those where I'm jacked up a bit. I think I'll simply go with it.

I don't want to put a damper on your confidence or enthusiasm but I'm solidly in PJ's camp. You'd be well advised to spend some time trying to fix this.
I notice you said 1/8-1/4 of a tip. One eighth is a huge amount. Absolutely hugh.
This type of thing is exactly why I advised to find the best player in the 14.1 league and see if they'd evaluate your game. This is something, among other things, you could have become cognizant of much sooner.
You mentioned you were going to get together with someone, around a 630 Fargo. I'm wondering if that happened and how it worked out.
Reason being is because players in that range could still be rather one dimensional and may or may not be of much help.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I'm solidly in PJ's camp. You'd be well advised to spend some time trying to fix this.

Sounds like you might benefit from moving your head a little to the left or your stick a little to the right (or both).

Have you looked at Dr. Dave's "vision center" info?

Vision Center - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

Answers to frequently-asked questions about how to find your personal 'vision center' in pool.

billiards.colostate.edu

Couple questions:
1. If he has compensated for his misperception of centerball to a point he can send the ball down table and have the CB return to his tip 10/10 times (at least in that attempt, but assume 8/10 or better), what exactly is the benefit you are looking for that is worth investing a bunch of time into?
2. hypothetically, if you were advising one of the players who cues low on the CB and consistently hits a half tip higher (not all that uncommon), would you have him change too? Or just let him do what he does but remain cognizant of the fact that he will strike the CB a half tip higher than where he addresses it?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Couple questions:
1. If he has compensated for his misperception of centerball to a point he can send the ball down table and have the CB return to his tip 10/10 times (at least in that attempt, but assume 8/10 or better), what exactly is the benefit you are looking for that is worth investing a bunch of time into?
2. hypothetically, if you were advising one of the players who cues low on the CB and consistently hits a half tip higher (not all that uncommon), would you have him change too? Or just let him do what he does but remain cognizant of the fact that he will strike the CB a half tip higher than where he addresses it?

In other words, in an activity centered around lining things up visually, why is it better to see things as they are?

pj
chgo

 

[dquarasr]

I don't want to put a damper on your confidence or enthusiasm but I'm solidly in PJ's camp. You'd be well advised to spend some time trying to fix this.
I notice you said 1/8-1/4 of a tip. One eighth is a huge amount. Absolutely hugh.
This type of thing is exactly why I advised to find the best player in the 14.1 league and see if they'd evaluate your game. This is something, among other things, you could have become cognizant of much sooner.
You mentioned you were going to get together with someone, around a 630 Fargo. I'm wondering if that happened and how it worked out.
Reason being is because players in that range could still be rather one dimensional and may or may not be of much help.

Thanks for your comments. Ok, maybe I exaggerated a little on how far right my tip was. It’s a pretty small but influential amount and I probably shouldn’t have tried to describe it in terms of increments of tip width.

No, we haven’t had a chance to work together yet.

 

[WobblyStroke]

In other words, in an activity centered around lining things up visually, why is it better to see things as they are?

What are you improving with this change if he can already hit center axis 10/10? and make long jacked up shots, indicating the perception issue seems to just be at the CB but potting angles are unaffected (this was the case for me when I had this 'issue').

Same with example 2.... do you tell that guy hitting a half tip higher than he aims up to change anything? Or just aim up half a tip below intended? It's really the same thing.

Which adjustment is easier and faster to implement? Changing the way you perceive center, or adjusting tip placement based on how you consistently perceive center?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Which adjustment is easier and faster to implement? Changing the way you perceive center, or adjusting tip placement based on how you consistently perceive center?

Which is more consistent/reliable and applies to all shots, not just center ball?

.... do you tell that guy hitting a half tip higher than he aims up to change anything? Or just aim up half a tip below intended? It's really the same thing.

You think looking down on a left/right alignment is the same as looking down on an up/down alignment? You need to think that through a little more carefully.

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

Which is more consistent/reliable and applies to all shots, not just center ball?


You think looking down on a left/right alignment is the same as looking down on an up/down alignment? You need to think that through a little more carefully.

pj
chgo

what im saying is that both boil down to a consistent relationship between where the tip appears to line up and where it actually hits. If this is predictable and consistent, it is far far easier to just adjust where you aim up.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If this is predictable and consistent, it is far far easier to just adjust where you aim up.

Estimating the tip offset, even with practice, is not as predictable, consistent or easy as lining things up visually in a straight line. If you're shooting a rifle would you rather have to memorize/estimate the distance to the side of the target you have to adjust, or just visually line the sites up with the target?

On top of that, this is one alignment (straight shot, center ball) - there are many more that might not work so well this way.

pj <- kinda surprised this is in question
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

Estimating the tip offset, even with practice, is not as predictable, consistent or easy as lining things up visually in a straight line. If you're shooting a rifle would you rather have to memorize/estimate the distance to the side of the target you have to adjust, or just visually line the sites up with the target?

On top of that, this is one alignment (straight shot, center ball) - there are many more that might not work so well this way.

pj <- kinda surprised this is in question
chgo

Just as easily, if you know your rifle is 6" left from a given distance, you can tinker with the setup or aim the sites 6" right.

I went through this years ago and at first approached it your way and tried to make sure I perceive center as center. As soon as I realized this would not be a quick fix I tried the other approach which is simple: Instead of aiming up on the ball where it looks like I'm at center, I lined up where the ball behaves as tho I am at center. My perception was off by maybe 1-2mm so 1/10 to 1/6 of a tip.

If I need to find centerball, I know what that looks like for me. DQ knows as well given his 10/10 tip return performance. So if he can do that with such consistency, what is the value in burning probably dozens of hours on tweaking how he perceives center if he can already reliably hit it?

You say this is for one shot, but just like the guy that hits a 1/2 tip high consistently does so all over the ball, this sideways misperception also translates to the same level of misperception all over the ball. Seeing the cue tip 2mm left of where it is actually lined up will be the case at center as well as a tip or 2 out to either side.

I just think he can probably spend that time on other parts of his game that actually need fixing.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Just as easily, if you know your rifle is 6" left from a given distance, you can tinker with the setup or aim the sites 6" right.

So aligning your sites/stick an estimated distance to the side of the target is as easy/accurate for you as aligning it at the target?

You do you, I guess...

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

So aligning your sites/stick an estimated distance to the side of the target is as easy/accurate for you as aligning it at the target?

You do you, I guess...

pj
chgo

What I'm saying is DQ has shown it is as easy given he returned the CB to his tip 10/10 times. Even if that is a likely over performance as 10./10 is really hard to do, that test, along with his jacked up pots show definitively that he can reliably find the center axis with his simple adjustment.

Why waste time tweaking when already so reliable?

Other than not actually improving how reliably he can hit center, any head position adjustment may affect how he perceives potting angles along with how he perceives center and actually throw him off more, not to mention the trickledown changes his setup may require to accomodate that new head position. I like a simple, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" approach here. His method for hitting center is working at a very high clip. Let it keep doing that rather than mess with it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... 1. If he has compensated for his misperception of centerball to a point he can send the ball down table and have the CB return to his tip 10/10 times (at least in that attempt, but assume 8/10 or better), what exactly is the benefit you are looking for that is worth investing a bunch of time into? ...

If he lines up off-center but then hits the ball in the center to get the return to the tip, he is swerving his stroke. That will have to be different for changes in speed and stroke length. If he has to jack up, it's even more complicated.

I think it easier to play without a swerve in your stroke.

 

[bbb]

this recent update and discussion to me brings up the question
that is addressed by wobbly and PJ
if someone can do a "flawed"stroke repeadedly and accurately
do they use what they got
and get good at being "bad"
or work to correct it and be "bad at being good for a while"
?