Chess clocks in pool

BRussell said:
ShortBusRuss: I just don’t get it. There’s nothing wrong with long games, if there’s lots of interesting back and forth. In fact, they’re better than quick ones. People just don’t like to watch players stare at the table for several minutes. If each shot is 20 sec or so, it’s so much easier to watch.

I’m thinking of the early matches at Matchroom events. If it’s an amateur league or local weekend tournament, sure, give it a try. I know Bob Jewett has used your approach.
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1. Because matches as they are currently played have no drama for the non hardcore player, and 2. Time pressure that ramps up as the match goes on will create that drama.

Example: player A is playing well, but forgets to hit their time clock. Commentators notice and tell the viewing fans what's up, and the potential problem for player A, as player B also notices, and smartly continues to play on player A's time (just like in chess..). Player A ends up a few games up on player B, but is forced into the pressure of their own making late in the match, which forces mistakes, and could lead to a dramatic turnaround in score late in the match, which inherently ma,es for great TV. NONE of this happens if it is just a flat time per shot.

And as I said, completely unworkable to ask a player to go back and hit their clock after every shot. Having a timekeeper keep 20 second shotclock for them takes away the player shooting themselves in the foot over a series of shots by failing to keep an eye on their time. Plus, 20 seconds is way too short for certain shots. There is a certain element of strategy as to how to spend your time in a close match, as the time can be set such that matches that go hill-hill will inevitably have time pressure, as players are not given enough time to play a 2 hour set slowly and methodically.

I think you are just not getting the TV element, and what it takes to get the viewer to engage with what is arguably some very boring content, played the way it currently is. Long, protracted safety battles are simply not interesting to anyone but hardcore players. Full stop.

And a 20 second shot clock will make our players look like amateurs at times, which is also not good.
 
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iusedtoberich said:
I’m a tech minded person and would welcome solutions such as clocks, visual camera motion detection systems, etc.

That said, I think for these high profile MR events (early rounds) Emily could simply have a players meeting and stress how important it is for a good fan experience for each player to show a sense of urgency each shot.

Every single pro, and amateur, can regulate their own speed.
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And the pros who need every single dollar they can earn will promptly ignore that "guidance" and play how they want to play, even if that means the entire endeavour fails. Especially if a major title is at stake.

Come ON, man. This is common sense for any one who has ever been around pro pool players. The only way some will play faster, is if it is actually forced upon them. Let the slow players fall by the wayside if they cannot adapt.

So, just curious... You think Nick Varner wins that recent One Pocket event if a chess clock system was instituted, with loss of game if your time runs out? That match was absolute torture on the fans. He didn't care, and he did what he could get away with, to win. A title meant more to him than the fan's enjoyment. That's how pros are. He even liked some of my criticisms on Facebook, of how that finals match went down. That is the mindset we are dealing with. No offense to Nick, but it is what it is. You can'tsay he actually cared about the fans during that match, as compared to WINNING. That is how the pros are built mentally. That's what makes them "pros". (Lol)

I LOVE watching a little moving in One Pocket, but would not have watched that match with a gun to my head. You cannot leave this to the pros to make a "best effort" to play faster. You will always have players like Varner holding up an entire bracket.
 
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ShortBusRuss said:
And the pros who need every single dollar they can earn will promptly ignore that "guidance" and play how they want to play, even if that means the entire endeavour fails. Especially if a major title is at stake.

Come ON, man. This is common sense for any one who has ever been around pro pool players. The only way some will play faster, is if it is actually forced upon them. Let the slow players fall by the wayside if they cannot adapt.

So, just curious... You think Nick Varner wins that recent One Pocket event if a chess clock system was instituted, with loss of game if your time runs out? That match was absolute torture on the fans. He didn't care, and he did what he could get away with, to win. A title meant more to him than the fan's enjoyment. That's how pros are. He even liked some of my criticisms on Facebook, of how that finals match went down. That is the mindset we are dealing with. No offense to Nick, but it is what it is. You can'tsay he actually cared about the fans during that match, as compared to WINNING. That is how the pros are built mentally. That's what makes them "pros". (Lol)

I LOVE watching a little moving in One Pocket, but would not have watched that match with a gun to my head. You cannot leave this to the pros to make a "best effort" to play faster. You will always have players like Varner holding up an entire bracket.
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I really don’t think the tournament directors tell them to speed up or ship out.

In the MR situation it’s different. It’s potentially redefining the entire sport. I think even short sighted players would come around if they knew the growth of their next 10 years of earnings were on the line. Instead of a single event.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I really don’t think the tournament directors tell them to speed up or ship out.

In the MR situation it’s different. It’s potentially redefining the entire sport. I think even short sighted players would come around if they knew the growth of their next 10 years of earnings were on the line. Instead of a single event.
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I think this is naive. Players will do what they feel they need to do when a major title is on the line, unless there is an immediate downside, such as potential loss of match due to time constraints. Especially if they are playing within the rules as they currently exist. They will see it as Matchroom's responsibility to change things up if they don't want slow play.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I’m a tech minded person and would welcome solutions such as clocks, visual camera motion detection systems, etc.

That said, I think for these high profile MR events (early rounds) Emily could simply have a players meeting and stress how important it is for a good fan experience for each player to show a sense of urgency each shot.

Every single pro, and amateur, can regulate their own speed.
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Sounds great but the term 'herding cats' comes to mind here. ;)
 
garczar said:
Sounds great but the term 'herding cats' comes to mind here. ;)
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Absolutely. Plus, I think some pros are verifiably autistic, and are unlikely to give a lot of thought to anything but shooting balls and winning. Danny Harriman comes to mind. Some players just ain't all there.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
1. Because matches as they are currently played have no drama for the non hardcore player, and 2. Time pressure that ramps up as the match goes on will create that drama.
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You may be right, but who knows? I’ve never seen a match with the system you’re talking about. I know for certain that I enjoy watching matches with the 30-sec clock but hate matches with no shot clock.
 
BRussell said:
You may be right, but who knows? I’ve never seen a match with the system you’re talking about. I know for certain that I enjoy watching matches with the 30-sec clock but hate matches with no shot clock.
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Just have a mini-taser attached to their 'family bits' controlled by a seat sensor. If they don't pull the trigger within 45seconds of getting up they get lit up. ;)
 
BRussell said:
You may be right, but who knows? I’ve never seen a match with the system you’re talking about. I know for certain that I enjoy watching matches with the 30-sec clock but hate matches with no shot clock.
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Me neither, but I can see how it would play out, if the time allowance is right. If we can make finals a single race in a double elimination tournament, we can change the format for the quarterfinals on to make for more dramatic viewing. If it turns out to work, then chess clocks could be applied to the whole tournament. A top of the line chess clock is less than $200, so not a big investment needed to test it out.

One positive thing about that? If they make that the format going forward, players will buy their own clocks to practice with, which will make it easier for other events to adopt the format.
 
Not a big fan of Chinese8ball but i do like they way they handle this. Very simple: A.They have a referee B. Said ref has a stopwatch.
 
garczar said:
Not a big fan of Chinese8ball but i do like they way they handle this. Very simple: A.They have a referee B. Said ref has a stopwatch.
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And this can work when your sport only needs to capture a tiny fraction of fans from a 2 billion+ population, and you can aford a referree for every match. Not workable for pool with it's current fanbase.

Plus, the game is hard enough for there to be clear separation at the top, which is not the case in pool. Players look much the same over the table at the top levels, so something else needs to be done to create pressure upon the competitors. In Chinese 8 ball, the game itself does this.
 
This idea was posted here before

Chess clocks in straight pool

I think this topic should have its own thread. Here is 3andstop's post from the other thread. Maybe I should have first clarified how a chess clock works. A chess clock has two individual clocks on it. They also have individual buttons on top of them that start their opponents clock. In...
forums.azbilliards.com

A experience with a chess clock

Pool Players' shot clock for Round Robin Tournament

We use a chess shot clock with 7 minutes for each player in our round robin format. After searching the net the link shown below is the best clock I have found that can be installed on a laptop computer. It is large enough to be seen by most people in the room. The Fisher option allows the...
forums.azbilliards.com

Detailed post

The feasibility of implementing a chess clock in one pocket tournaments

Issue: How to speed up the games so the tournament finishes on time? Discussion: Some say it isn't broke, don't fix it. Others say that one pocket will always be stuck as a niche sport until we speed up the pace. Presuming that a change is needed, it has been suggested that, like chess, a move...
onepocket.org onepocket.org
 
DaWizard said:
This idea was posted here before

Chess clocks in straight pool

I think this topic should have its own thread. Here is 3andstop's post from the other thread. Maybe I should have first clarified how a chess clock works. A chess clock has two individual clocks on it. They also have individual buttons on top of them that start their opponents clock. In...
forums.azbilliards.com

A experience with a chess clock

Pool Players' shot clock for Round Robin Tournament

We use a chess shot clock with 7 minutes for each player in our round robin format. After searching the net the link shown below is the best clock I have found that can be installed on a laptop computer. It is large enough to be seen by most people in the room. The Fisher option allows the...
forums.azbilliards.com

Detailed post

The feasibility of implementing a chess clock in one pocket tournaments

Issue: How to speed up the games so the tournament finishes on time? Discussion: Some say it isn't broke, don't fix it. Others say that one pocket will always be stuck as a niche sport until we speed up the pace. Presuming that a change is needed, it has been suggested that, like chess, a move...
onepocket.org onepocket.org
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I think we all get your shot-clock love. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Instead of here you might want to contact MR directly. Only they can say yes/no. https://matchroompool.com/contact/ I'd be curious(barely) to hear what MR says on this.
 
It just needs testing. The setups, the timesettings, unknown side effects.

My guess is that a set time per rack + increment is better than a "full match time". Ball in hand when time runs out.
 
I don't watch snooker but I assume there is no shot clock.
If that is the case I will assume MR does not care to add a clock to the early rounds of pool.
The only way a chess style clock would work is if it was activated by the players AND the table.
By that I mean the pockets would have to be equipped with sensors to know when a ball entered.
In that way the table would know when the player started, when the ball was pocketed, and when the next shot sequence began.
It seems way too complicated to make it work correctly. It would undoubtedly malfunction from time to time and be more trouble than it is worth.
I think we are stuck with boring pool, in some cases, in the first few rounds.
Maybe we could get the guy who shows the useless replays of every break to man the shot clock.
 
JolietJames said:
I don't watch snooker but I assume there is no shot clock.
If that is the case I will assume MR does not care to add a clock to the early rounds of pool.
The only way a chess style clock would work is if it was activated by the players AND the table.
By that I mean the pockets would have to be equipped with sensors to know when a ball entered.
In that way the table would know when the player started, when the ball was pocketed, and when the next shot sequence began.
It seems way too complicated to make it work correctly. It would undoubtedly malfunction from time to time and be more trouble than it is worth.
I think we are stuck with boring pool, in some cases, in the first few rounds.
Maybe we could get the guy who shows the useless replays of every break to man the shot clock.
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Absolutely not. I am not sure where the misassumption is coming from, but you simply figure out what target match time you are seeking, give half that time to one player, half to the other, and then the players hit their button as they go back to their seat. Time continues to run on your clock as the referee is racking for you after a win. If your "flag" drops, you lose. What time each player is given takes racking time into account, so the player is not "shorted" anything. Nothing could possibly be simpler. A per-shot clock would have to be managed by a third party. and as such, is prone to mistakes. As far as reliability, the DGT model chess clocks are currently the gold standard, and just work, 100% of the time, every time. Literally the only possible issue is the referee not programming the initial time in properly, and that part is kind of idiot-proof.

And the break replays are not useless to those of us looking to learn that particular break, and how what angle/speed of the break results in what direction the 1 ball takes towards the side. I think Shane used to record his breaks and review them to do the same. Definitely would not be surprised to learn that Little Ko did the same before this tournament.
 
JolietJames said:
I don't watch snooker but I assume there is no shot clock.
If that is the case I will assume MR does not care to add a clock to the early rounds of pool.
The only way a chess style clock would work is if it was activated by the players AND the table.
By that I mean the pockets would have to be equipped with sensors to know when a ball entered.
In that way the table would know when the player started, when the ball was pocketed, and when the next shot sequence began.
It seems way too complicated to make it work correctly. It would undoubtedly malfunction from time to time and be more trouble than it is worth.
I think we are stuck with boring pool, in some cases, in the first few rounds.
Maybe we could get the guy who shows the useless replays of every break to man the shot clock.
Click to expand...
I think you could get good local volunteer refs. Have a day or two for orientation and off you go. Take Atl. City for example, just think of how many good local players live within 100mi(maybe a lot less). Comp them some free food and swag,etc. Don't know why they don't do something like this.
 
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