Deflection as relating to tip size
- Thread starter trfitters
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The 'forgiving' you mention has more to do with spin than deflection. Smaller shaft allows more tip offset prior to miscue thus more spin. Larger shaft is the opposite. Keep in mind the difference in the two is quite small. Deflection is another thing altogether. 'Generally' a smaller shaft has less mass thus less squirt. I wouldn't worry much about any of this, find something you like and just play with it.
I think playing with larger tip diameter means the tip will still strike the ball inside the circumference of the tip. And so they are used to a certain amount of unused overlap sticking over past the contact point. So if they visualize from the edge of the tip, it looks like they are aligned further out than where they are actually striking the cueball.
Give one of them a smaller tip and they try to align the edge of the tip to the same point. But now there is less overlap. So they end up striking outside the miscue limit because they are not in tune with the curve of the tip and where it is contacting.
Neither is more forgiving. It just looks different from one to the other. You’ll miscue more going from one to the other. You’ll underspin your shots going the other way. But you can accomplish the same shots with either once you become one with your stick in either case. Neither is actually more forgiving.
Give one of them a smaller tip and they try to align the edge of the tip to the same point. But now there is less overlap. So they end up striking outside the miscue limit because they are not in tune with the curve of the tip and where it is contacting.
Neither is more forgiving. It just looks different from one to the other. You’ll miscue more going from one to the other. You’ll underspin your shots going the other way. But you can accomplish the same shots with either once you become one with your stick in either case. Neither is actually more forgiving.
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
Wouldn’t a smaller diameter squirt more to the the weakness of being smaller than it’s thicker counterpart?
My experience is quite the opposite.
Larger diameter shafts squirt more so players tend to play closer to center ball with them. This only feels more forgiving because it is more comfortable to stroke closer to the center ball shot line.
You can play with the exact same accuracy with large or small diameter shafts if you learn to hit the cue ball where you mean to and feel comfortable doing it.
Also with the same tip radius curvature you can apply the same amount of spin regardless of the shaft diameter.
Players subconsciously move their forward stroke closer to the centerline under pressure unless they practice very much to not do so. It takes years and years of practice.
End-mass is what causes squirt. Less mass, less squirt. Lo-defl. shafts work by getting out of the way allowing cb to go straighter. Smaller shaft does not equate to more deflect. A smaller shaft DOES allow more tip offset before a miscue thus more spin but the extra spin is very small.
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Only thing tip size has to do with deflection is that as a general law of how deflection works in cues. Smaller tip diameter = less mass in the shaft = less deflection. Given all other variables stay the same in the design. As far as being more forgiving to mistakes, I find a smaller tip as well as lower deflection, exaggerates stroke flaws and spin on the cueball, so any badly struck ball goes in that badly struck direction instead of deflecting into the correct aiming line. Basically, it's how the players learned to aim, someone may have some odd spin they put on by accident or are aiming off the line, but their shaft deflects the cueball for them, so they think they hit it good. Then they shoot with an LD shaft and the shafts sends the cueball on a straighter truer path and it seems like they messed up, but it's actually the shaft just exposing their flaws.
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
When was the last time someone missed a shot and blamed deflection?
I don’t think most people can tell or even know it exists. I’ve played the game since I was 16 and never noticed deflection.
Then again I aim and play with deflection in mind before I even knew there was such a thing. It was called out my an old timer long ago and he said I was subconsciously compensating for it. I just told him balls don’t travel in a straight line. I viewed it similar to English. Sometimes you have to compensate the distance and ball travel.
Carbon shafts are superior but not because of the lack of deflection. The difference is very little. I like it because it is stronger and doesn’t seem to flex. Maybe it is the placebo effect. Lol
I don’t think most people can tell or even know it exists. I’ve played the game since I was 16 and never noticed deflection.
Then again I aim and play with deflection in mind before I even knew there was such a thing. It was called out my an old timer long ago and he said I was subconsciously compensating for it. I just told him balls don’t travel in a straight line. I viewed it similar to English. Sometimes you have to compensate the distance and ball travel.
Carbon shafts are superior but not because of the lack of deflection. The difference is very little. I like it because it is stronger and doesn’t seem to flex. Maybe it is the placebo effect. Lol
I disagree on this.
The miscue limit region on the CB doesn’t care what size tip hit it (as long as the tip radius is small enough to avoid contacting the tip on its shoulder). Assuming tip radius shapes are the same, the contact patch size and grip will be exactly the same with a thin shaft or a thick shaft.
The only difference is the visual tip offset from the shooter’s perspective - with fatter shafts appearing to be further away from center for the same contact point.
That visual difference, I think, is why many players believe a thinner shaft imparts more spin. If they play the same apparent tip position as they did with their fatter shaft, as judged by tip distance to the edge of the ball, they’ll make contact further away from CB center and impart more spin (or miscue). If they get more spin, it just means they weren’t hitting as far towards the edge of the CB as they could have been with their fatter shaft.
This may also explain why players believe fatter shafts are “more forgiving” - they’re more likely to be hitting the CB closer to center.
I’ve played several years straight with a 13mm maple, then an 11.75mm z2, and now a 12.5mm CF shaft, and have never experienced a difference in how much spin I could apply once I found the visual limit.
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That’s a super common reason for a miss for me, whether I misjudged how much squirt I would get, or accidentally hit the CB off-center a bit.
So you have never noticed deflection since age 16, but also have always known balls don’t travel in a straight line and have compensated for it?
Hmmmm. Ok.
That is the difference between just playing and studying the game enough to teach or "learn" to play. If you don't know why you made the ball it's a lot harder to learn to compensate for different shots on purpose, you just kinda learn to do it over the years. Ends up being like voodoo or religion. Why do we pray to the god of rain? Because when we do it rains. No thought of exactly why it rains, they just know they pray, it rains, so they keep praying. If asked why prayer makes it rain, no one knows past saying "rain god does it". If you ask a scientist that can break down clouds, humidity, air currents, etc... they can tell you exactly why it rains and predict when it will. Repeatable, known, teachable steps are the start of any learning and scientific method that works no matter who the person is learning because you are learning methods based on the core of the topic and can break down the steps.
Imaging learning to be a mechanic and the guy tells you go use this wrench on this bolt, but he never tells you why, it's a 10mm bolt so you need a 10mm wrench, but he does not tell you that. So for a year you take this blue handled wrench with the scratch 1 inch from the bottom and use it on this one bolt. Till the wrench is lost or you go to another garage, and you have no idea what to do because you never "learned" anything, were just shown it. You know this wrench works on that bolt but you don't know why so no way to adjust to a new situation or teach someone else. Same thing with "just playing" without knowing the mechanics and physics of the game, you may get to be an OK player, with just trial and error or by accident over many years, but if you knew why you are making or missing the balls the learning process cuts down by a factor of 5.
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Last night. But I’m out of town traveling and had to pick a house cue off the wall. I couldn’t use sidespin on any long shots.
This.
Agreed, but I also feel like a lot of people get WAY too worried about technique, and would be better served to rely more on instinct and practice without cluttering their minds with the myriad of factors that exist for every shot. I wish I would have focused a lot harder on fundamentals when I was more of a beginner, and left the more complicated stuff for later.
There are plenty of really good players out there that are ignorant of pivot points, swerve, deflection, aiming systems, etc. And plenty of bangers who try to know every system and nuance of stroke that will never pass 500 fargo.
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
These players you speak of are usually the slow play guys. Takes an hour to finish a set in a tournament and all the players are staring and waiting.
I’m old school. Never learned how to play pool from a book like most people. I glanced at a book once and gave it back and went to shoot. Lol
In regards to old timers who taught me shots and no longer here? They were really good players and they never once spoke to me about deflection. I believe it exists but not to the extent people speak of it.
in general you don’t miss a shot because of deflection. You missed it badly. The pool cue is a fine tuned instrument. It’s actually amazing what it does and built by man from scratch. So we shouldn’t really give this much attention to deflection.
I agree lower squirt shafts are less forgiving of stroke errors - their pivot points are farther from the bridge, causing overcompensation for squirt.
But I wonder why you think they exaggerate spin.
pj
chgo
I agree, as long as you don't spin the ball or hit off center by mistake.
It's one thing to rely on instinct and muscle memory over studying the actual science and mechanics of shooting. It's quite another to be deliberately ignorant and dismissive of the way things work. To each their own, was my point. Some are better served to study and understand the reason for things, and some are better served to just do. Find a balance that suits you personally and get after it.
Well said!!
