Should All Skill Levels Have an Equal Chance to Win a Weekly 9-Ball Handicapped Tournament?

In amateur events there needs to be some hd'capping/equalization used. Without it the same few players win/steal the money every time. Its not about appeasing 'whiners' as it is trying to balance the talent/skill and reduce the 'stealing'. People need to work to get better for sure but having events loaded with dead $$ is no good either. In my area(Ok,Ks,Mo) fields are bigger than ever(bigger payouts too) due to Fargo. The better players still usually win but they have to play their best every match, not near as many easy beat-downs.
Just so I'm clear... I don't have a problem with handicapped events that are within reason. Everyone as the right to not play. However there is a threshold between making it a challenge for top players versus telling them they aren't welcome.

My point was that players that want handicaps generally will continue to 'want' something more, or find another torch to carry. I can't stand the bottom end whiners in my area. The small events that do happen give you free access to pool all day. So for small money ~$20 you can expose yourself to competition, potentially play top talent, and hit balls for the day regardless if you go out/out or not. Complaining about not having a chance to cash is ridiculous. Value for the money is lost to those wanting handouts.

I do suffer from "back in my day bias". There was no such thing as handicapping (excluding league). You showed up, paid your equal entry, and either hoped for a bottom feeder for the win, or a world beater for the experience.

I partially agree that handicapped events don't do much to improve one's game. Those on the lower end might possibly gain the ill-gotten sense pride of beating a better player. Those on the high end should benefit from the pressure to perform.
 
Without reading the whole thread, here’s my take. In pool, much like life, there are winners and losers. Tired of being a loser? Put the work in to improve. No disrespect, Chris as I know you are trying to make your customers happy, but we have to stop with the “everybody’s a winner” mentality. I think a 6/2 race is more than fair to the weaker player and probably a little unfair to the stronger player. if you are a weaker player and you can’t compete in a 6/2 race, you should be practicing more vs looking for a bigger spot.
 
Is the purpose of the tournament to provide a living to a few top players, or generate cash flow for the hosting venue? No cash flow no venue eventually.
That's where my example of outlandish handicapping plays out.
  1. A room goes from 35-40 players in a single day, no handicap event.
  2. Then to a minor game handicap format to appease the bottom 30%. This seems to make sense to keep the room full. Generally no complaints.
  3. Then it goes to money handicapping as well. This is mildly annoying consider the top players are now being double whammied. Minimum stays the same. The stronger are penalized, (aka: we don't want you here)
  4. Then because whiners will be whiners, the game handicap loses it's cap and sets become outlandishly long (13-2 for example). Now your nice single day event gets stretched into the wee hours.
    • You lose a few top players because it's time.vs.reward.​
    • You lose the middle road players because they still lack the odds to cash but are strong enough to have a long day.​
    • You retain some of the bottom end not because they're likely to cash, but because they still suck and won't suffer the long day.​
    • You lose some bottom end because they don't want to stand there and get their asses handed to them in a grinding marathon for the strong.​
  5. Fast forward a few weeks.
    • With the majority no longer interested (middle pack). The prize money drops significantly and you may get 1-2 top players interested and they still generally win grinding out marathons all day.
    • Top players almost entirely don't bother anymore
    • You're left with the bottom 30% making up now 80% of the field, and they were never loyal to the room or interested in improving their games so their attendance is random.
  6. Game Over
IMO, as someone that's never had their income determined by how many people fill a pool room. There should be two concerns for the room owner. #1, get as many people in your room as possible. #2, grow the interest of the game in your area to improve #1.

How can you fix the above...? Just don't go down that road. Do something else. "Second Chance"...? "Entry+ for top finishers"...? Put a literal handicap cap on the event, and run a subsidized ring game for the elite..?
 
Without reading the whole thread, here’s my take. In pool, much like life, there are winners and losers. Tired of being a loser? Put the work in to improve. No disrespect, Chris as I know you are trying to make your customers happy, but we have to stop with the “everybody’s a winner” mentality. I think a 6/2 race is more than fair to the weaker player and probably a little unfair to the stronger player. if you are a weaker player and you can’t compete in a 6/2 race, you should be practicing more vs looking for a bigger spot.

Why not try some things other than just handicapping?

What about having tiered tourneys? If the space is available, have A/B/C tourneys and have a playoff between the winners of the tourneys? You pay each division, then bonus for the playoff.

Maybe have draw-your-partner scotch doubles tourneys. If you really want the lower level players to improve, this is an amazing opportunity for them to learn from better players. If you want to improve the pool scene, this also is a good way of doing it--the players will be forced to interact in helpful ways. You can also do this pro/am style and divide into divisions so you don't have two high level players on the same team.
 
Real easy to say but go try to run a decent amateur event without it. To use a golf analogy, would a bunch of 20hd'cap golfers enter a event to play PGA pros heads up?? Hell no they wouldn't. I know this is extreme example but it makes my point pretty clear.
What's the entry...?

There's value in experiencing how the elite play. The latest crop of players don't seem to realize that. These same players will pay >$50 for an hour lesson, but scoff at $20 for a days worth of competition against the guys he'll pay the 50 to...lol
 
This is how my local room in Austin does weekly tournaments with no handicaps. They're played on 10 of the room's 18 Diamond Pro-Am 9-footers. Field's always full, with several 700+ guys in the mix. The Break Contest is breaking and trying to run a full rack of 15 balls in rotation. The pot builds up and was north of $6,000 last week. You get one entry ticket each tournament you enter, and can buy more for $20 ea iirc:

1706810086743.png
 
A good compromise is to have equal numbers of tournaments (non-handicapped) and masturbation events (handicapped 'tourneys').

I have no problem with owners and 'players' wanting handicapped tourneys. I'm just tired of all the tourneys going to handicapped.
So I suppose you are a regular on the open pro tournaments??
 
What's the entry...?

There's value in experiencing how the elite play. The latest crop of players don't seem to realize that. These same players will pay >$50 for an hour lesson, but scoff at $20 for a days worth of competition against the guys he'll pay the 50 to...lol
There's a big difference in playing just to learn and playing trying to win/place well. I've never learned anything from getting run over.
 
Without reading the whole thread, here’s my take. In pool, much like life, there are winners and losers. Tired of being a loser? Put the work in to improve. No disrespect, Chris as I know you are trying to make your customers happy, but we have to stop with the “everybody’s a winner” mentality. I think a 6/2 race is more than fair to the weaker player and probably a little unfair to the stronger player. if you are a weaker player and you can’t compete in a 6/2 race, you should be practicing more vs looking for a bigger spot.
Comments like this drive me crazy. Every player has a ceiling to how good they can be. No amount of practice will change that. Take number 100 in the world. Do you really think he would play as well as filler or gorst or any of the other top ten if he just practiced more?

Why does it always have to favor the better player? They are the minority in any tournament but win the majority of the money. They think it is unfair if anyone else who donates has a legit chance of making any money but then will give those players the 7 out and breaks gambling and beat them easily.

My opinion is all players get better if the handicaps are correct. The better player has to play well to win and the weaker player gets into more close matches. A race to 9 even vs a 9-5 handicapped race is a whole lot different if the score is 8-4.
 
Playing tournaments against better players is honestly Good way to play them cheap, it gets expensive lining up sets with people 40+ more Fargo than you but you can enter tournaments and just be out your entry fee
I appreciated all the opinions and responses. After 27 years of doing these handicapped tournaments, I realize you can’t please everyone. Currently we have two weekly tournaments. One is open for everyone that has spots all the way up to 6/2. The second one, the top two rankings for the open tournament are not permitted to play, but even among those that play, the 3 handicap rankings still go up a 4/2, as the weakest players which account for generally about 1/3 of the field are virtual beginners that rarely can make more than 1-2 balls in a row.

Those players that have to give 4/2 on Wednesdays might actually get a 4/2 handicap against the strongest players on Mondays, so they get to experience what it feels like to give up a spot like that.

It’s not perfect and there will always be whiners, but the large majority of players feel the tournaments are fair. I do often make changes and adjustments which some don’t like, but they always have the choice to play or not.
 
In reply to this statement....''

Should All Skill Levels Have an Equal Chance to Win a Weekly 9-Ball Handicapped Tournament?​

First off, I don't think this type of event should be weekly, monthly yes, where the good/bad can play equal.
Why?
Because good players Don't like playing in events where they can lose, they want the best of it, as it's always been, so just make it once a mth.
But.
The event you have Should NOT be any of the traditional, one on one two and out events where NO socialization of room patrons are occurring.
NC think back, how many lifelong friends have your created from you beating him or vise versa?
Does tournament match play, you against me, create a strong social factor that helps business?
I know it doesn't and reading your post is old hat from this old hat.

What's needed is to remove all the stuff you dislike and start anew.

I guess Hey Ball is an offshoot/good example that's got some thin goin.
I tho know nothing about it.
 
Comments like this drive me crazy. Every player has a ceiling to how good they can be. No amount of practice will change that. Take number 100 in the world. Do you really think he would play as well as filler or gorst or any of the other top ten if he just practiced more?
We are talking amateurs here but I do think #100 has a chance to beat a top 5 player. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Amateurs can plateau at a certain level but I have a hard time believing a 450 can't become a 550 through dedicated practice, a desire to improve and possibly professional instruction. I've seen it happen.
Why does it always have to favor the better player? They are the minority in any tournament but win the majority of the money. They think it is unfair if anyone else who donates has a legit chance of making any money but then will give those players the 7 out and breaks gambling and beat them easily.
You think a 6/2 handicapped race favors the better players? I'd say most handicapped events DO NOT favor the better players and that's where a majority of the amateur events are headed if they haven't already landed there. Again, not everybody is a winner or has a chance at winning, that's life. You cannot lower the standards so the weakest of the weak have a chance at winning. The higher skilled player who puts in the time to improve or maintain, should have a higher probability of winning vs the player with the lower skill level who doesn't care to put in the time to improve. Let me put it in a real life scenario. The CEO of my company has a higher education that I do and more experience resulting in a commensurate gap in compensation. Should I command his salary be lowered and mine raised to level the playing field and make it "fair"? Of course not. He's earned his salary and I've not earned his level of compensation and most likely never will. That's life.
My opinion is all players get better if the handicaps are correct. The better player has to play well to win and the weaker player gets into more close matches. A race to 9 even vs a 9-5 handicapped race is a whole lot different if the score is 8-4.
The caveat is "correct". IMO, providing a handicap (especially a wide one) diminishes the desire to improve.
 
Real easy to say but go try to run a decent amateur event without it. To use a golf analogy, would a bunch of 20hd'cap golfers enter a event to play PGA pros heads up?? Hell no they wouldn't. I know this is extreme example but it makes my point pretty clear.
Totally agree, and you confirm my point even further.
 
The casinos should learn from this. They should give the gamblers handicapped so they have equal chances of winning. It'd really fill up all those empty game rooms.

Casinos give free rooms, food and shows to offset the slot losses.
Everyone is equal at the slot machine.
 
There's a big difference in playing just to learn and playing trying to win/place well.
Of course there is, but bottom feeders or even mid-tier shouldn't have expectation to win. Although the latter may hope to place.
I've never learned anything from getting run over.
Really...? Nothing...? Like, don't take that risk again, or how they managed that cluster you thought was going to get you back to the table..? The list of possibilities is long. I can't think of a time when I got completely outclassed that I didn't gain some level of knowledge from the experience. Maybe I just have that much more to learn.
 
The casinos should learn from this. They should give the gamblers handicapped so they have equal chances of winning. It'd really fill up all those empty game rooms.
This contradicts your opinion. The gambler doesn’t have an equal chance in the long run. But the gambler can take the worst of it in games where he is between a .5% and 5% dog and still score some big wins and many small ones. A few video poker games are positive expectation with perfect play, but aside from those increasingly rare games plenty of video poker is less than .5% house advantage. Conservative craps bets are 1.4%. Blackjack varies on rules and strategy. So the player at a disadvantage will win sometimes and will win many trials. The slot player has many small rewards on the way to a loss for the day. Gaming companies will study the psychology.

So, what is likely to draw more money? A game with a 1% house advantage or one with a 95% house advantage? The edges in poker are small compared to pool as between a good and bad player. Who makes more money, a poker pro who can play without giving up a spot, but has many losing sessions or a good pool player who won’t give a spot?

It depends what you want. If you are are a good player willing to fade a spot in a tournament where you have an edge despite the handicap you will make more money over time in a handicapped tournament, because of the likelihood of increased prize money and the many times you will win. If you can’t handle losing to an inferior player ever, you will make less. The choice is yours

There’s a reason lotteries and casinos celebrate winners. They don’t berate them.
 
There's a big difference in playing just to learn and playing trying to win/place well. I've never learned anything from getting run over.
Right?? If I wanna watch a guy run out I will watch pro tournaments on the interweb, not pay an entry fee. I have no problem playing guys 100 Fargo points higher than me but beyond that why should I pay someone to practice while I sit in my chair and watch?
 
Back
Top