Should All Skill Levels Have an Equal Chance to Win a Weekly 9-Ball Handicapped Tournament?

it depends on the goal of the organizer. if he wants lots of entries and repeat business he has to try to make it fair so the top players dont take off all the money.
if its supposed to be a contest to see who is best then do it that way. but most times even before it starts everyone knows who is best and going to win the money. maybe just give away trophies for the winners and see if the top players in the area enter. and the bad players many would rather have a trophy than a small payday.
 
ChrisinNC said:
OK, here’s the dilemma - I will absolutely not allow a low ranked player to be able to win a match by winning 1 game on one lucky shot or one 9 ball hung in the pocket. And if we make the races any longer than to 5 or 6, we end up being here way too late in to the night / morning, even though we start matches at 6:30 PM.

That is why all our matchups are either 3/3, 4/3, 4/2, 5/2 or 6/2
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A lot of places have 500 and lower or 400 and lower rated tournaments to get more local beginners/weaker players involved in tournament play. I think that's a good idea, as long as no outside/unknown sandbaggers creep in.
 
yes the weaker player rather than running two or three balls and selling out when you know you cant run out the table, is better to ride the money and try to win that way.
it is a skill to hit it right to give yourself the best chance for it to go in or leave him safe.

the better player has to utilize his skills to run out and the other has to try to give himself the best chance of winning. although the better player doesn't like losing that way and wants to win with the other selling out and him running out.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Riding the money is a skill. I learned it at ring nine ball where there is often no choice.
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1 on the 5 and 2 on the 9 respot with 1 before the 5 and 2 before the 9 five handed was a standard ring game in the Seattle Tacoma area back in the '80s. Race track Rick had the record with 2 fives and 4 nines in one rack. Rick would have fargoed around 700. He convinced me to make billiards a part of my practice routine. 🤷‍♂️
 
As a player, I prefer to get better and win.
I do have to ask, how many good players will keep playing when the dead money is gone?
Eventually, good players will drop off because they don’t want to play each other for the money.
It’s a tough job to trying to keep the balance.
 
maha said:
yes the weaker player rather than running two or three balls and selling out when you know you cant run out the table, is better to ride the money and try to win that way.
it is a skill to hit it right to give yourself the best chance for it to go in or leave him safe.

the better player has to utilize his skills to run out and the other has to try to give himself the best chance of winning. although the better player doesn't like losing that way and wants to win with the other selling out and him running out.
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Sry, so the logic is that a rock bottom player who doesn't have the chops to string a few pots together. Does have the skill to recognize and perform a legitimate opportunity at riding the nine with a 2 way outcome...? Please....

How and or why are we pretending that a bottom feeder such has been the discussion thus far has any skill at all. Let alone the table IQ to identify 2 ways.
 
maha said:
5 or 10 bucks for a tournament is of course not gambling but entertainment.
still most want to have a chance or the entertainment value suffers.
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As long as the expectation of 'chance' is limited to the top 60% of the field, then I agree. Those with $10 burning a hole in their pockets, 2 left hands, and a stick off the wall, should not have expectation to cash. The notion of it is asinine.

...and just to stop the flood gate of rebuttals citing how awesome they play with a house cue. The distinction was to indicate players that have no invested interest in developing their games, and not to belittle all the incognito road warriors that frequent AZB.
maha said:
but the top players in the area may be looking at it as an easy smaller payday. so why accommodate them for that as most or none hang out there and spend money normally if its a bar rather than a pool room.
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I agree. Catering to actual pool players is a waste of time usually. Those looking for a small payday will not dump cash at the bar or on the menu. Otherwise they've spent what they battled for all day. I'm all for handicapping to level out the top 60% of entries. That group of players should feel like they have a chance. However my pity for the weak ends there.
 
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ChrisinNC said:
If he often finishes near the money but in the top half of the field, it sounds like his handicap ranking may be about right. There are exceptions, but most TDs take the job of accurately ranking the players seriously, although it is not easy to do. The more of these weekly tournaments he plays in, the more data the TD has to be able to accurately rank him.
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The tourney I speak of gives out coins. Top players get 3 to 5 and lesser players get 7 or so. Give up a coin per loss. I've never understood those handicaps, that's why I never played tournaments.
I like single matchups or ring games. Not housebroken enuf for tourney play. Might embarrass someone. Or myself. Lol
 
Mensabum said:
I like single matchups or ring games. Not housebroken enuf for tourney play. Might embarrass someone. Or myself. Lol
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Ring games aren't a thing in my region, and unfortunately it's near impossible to get into a legitimate singles match up. Most seemingly just want to protect their ego more than anything else. That's not to say I'm going to destroy anyone within a 1hr drive of my home town. If anything there are several that I'd need to play an 'A' game to ensure a win. Just that there seems to be a lack of interest in an even up challenge.

I could travel down to Toronto and bet it up, but the default $$$ is beyond what I think a responsible father of 3 with a modest income should consider. ...and I can play these same guys straight up for relatively small money in tourney entry fees.

I don't play pool to make money. I like the competition. Although I agree that small weekly events should be handicapped. I personally feel that playing against weight isn't a contest of skill. It's more akin to playing the ghost.
 
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The_JV said:
I could travel down to Toronto and bet it up, but the default $$$ is beyond what I think a responsible father of 3 with a modest income should consider. ...and I can play these same guys straight up for relatively small money in tourney entry fees.
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This Is mainly my reason for playing tournaments etc, only chance I get really to play stronger players without needing to put up an amount of money im uncomfortable with
 
Atorontopoolplayer said:
This Is mainly my reason for playing tournaments etc, only chance I get really to play stronger players without needing to put up an amount of money im uncomfortable with
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...and this is why I think the notion of bolstering the bottom end into what might be an even match with the strong nothing more than an opportunity at a participation ribbon. I donated small money in tournaments for years to gain that exposure, and I'm better for it.
 
Ill Gotten Gain said:
As a player, I prefer to get better and win.
I do have to ask, how many good players will keep playing when the dead money is gone?
Eventually, good players will drop off because they don’t want to play each other for the money.
It’s a tough job to trying to keep the balance.
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That's not necessarily the case. They'll more likely to drop off because 5 player tournaments aren't fun. Or the TD stops running them.
 
The_JV said:
Sry, so the logic is that a rock bottom player who doesn't have the chops to string a few pots together. Does have the skill to recognize and perform a legitimate opportunity at riding the nine with a 2 way outcome...? Please....

How and or why are we pretending that a bottom feeder such has been the discussion thus far has any skill at all. Let alone the table IQ to identify 2 ways.
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👏
 
Mensabum said:
The tourney I speak of gives out coins. Top players get 3 to 5 and lesser players get 7 or so. Give up a coin per loss. I've never understood those handicaps, that's why I never played tournaments.
I like single matchups or ring games. Not housebroken enuf for tourney play. Might embarrass someone. Or myself. Lol
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Those "chip tournaments" are very popular in my area. The top players (like maybe 3 total players) get 3 chips, the weakest get 8 chips. Incoming player breaks. Bar table 9-ball. You know how hard it is to give up the break and KEEP WINNING until everyone runs out of chips? When Joven Bustamante (our local hero) wins these tournaments, he has to win like 45-50 games before he loses 3. It's brutal and almost impossible.
 
imagine how good a weak player feels the few times he can beat a much better player and now wants to come back more often.
doesn't happen without a big enough spot of some kind.

i hardly remember the times i robbed a weaker player or just beat or lost to a person around my speed. but i sure as hell remember the times i robbed a top player or champion.
 
jv
i agree with a lot you said. but i also referred to a weaker player not a complete newbie. the weaker player can ride the nine by hitting the area or side of it that can go in the direction he wants and maybe get his cue ball away from where, say the one ball may wind up. not where he snookers the other player and makes the nine.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think they do. See above. And I think they are better for the top players if they are as interested in tough competition as much as making money.
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What do you say to the idea that most of the time, good players are the ones who win a handicap tournament, despite the handicap? So do lesser players want to have a chance to win? The evidence backs up the idea that they DON'T win. So, do they just want the ILLUSION of a chance? If the ones they want the ILLUSION of beating don't play, what, then are the lesser players accomplishing, except being beat by "B+" and "A-" players. Now to my real point. My opinion, since you asked for it, is handicaps and Fargorate and participation trophies are the things that are making America suck at the Mosconi Cup. Since they have been in place, we (America), have started looking like "also-rans" at that venue. We can't just look to compete. We have to win. Shane is a very good, world class player. But he is for Shane. He is not inspiring. Neither is Tyler. We need Wolford. We need Sky. They have personality! They have passion! They are inspiring! I'll take Gorst, because his fundamentals are so sound, and, well, because, he is Gorst! I'll take Bergman, for the same reason. I'll keep them all for at least the next five years, regardless. Then, I believe, we will put those "Your-Roe-Pee-Annes" in their place. As "Also-Rans".
 
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