Deliberate foul query - 8-ball (and brief tournament experience)

[Flakeandrun]

Played in a one evening tournament last night. Amateur only, races to 5, 8-ball, 9foot, black only called.

The field was quite competitive, and larger than usual for one of these one day/evening events. Hosted by a place that isn't my local, but another great pool hall that is mostly American tables here (20 or so Aileex 4.25", 3 Diamond 4.25" and 1 4" and 4 Chinese-8 tables). Whole event was played on the Aileex, except for the final which was on the Diamond 4"

Played decent except for one game (the semi-final). Wasn't going to play the event at all, as I had a small surgery in the afternoon, but got bored at home.
Started at 7:30 and finished at just after 1:30am... came third... as mentioned, all matches race to 5. That's 6 races to 5 played... had me feeling a little bit for some of these pro players (not too much, they're mostly paid to be there... whether a little or a lot)... I don't think it's the playing itself, but more the times in between. How to fit in food, toilet breaks, getting a drink. This kind of thing.

I found it relatively easy until the quarter-final, where I came back from 4-2 down against a player similar speed to myself. Was feeling pretty good going into the semi-final, and then I got obliterated 5-1. I went one rack down, and brought it back level to 1-1, but the rack itself wasn't a good one. My head was kind of down due to an issue with a shot I played in the rack, and I was feeling tired, hungry and like I might wet myself There was a tense moment in the rack, which kind of got in my head for the rest of the game. It was regarding a deliberate, tactical foul which I played. I did have another opportunity at 4-1, and played my way through a difficult rack, before bottling the penultimate shot (shouldn't have, but I folded the whole rack after that... he basically had a 4 stop shot run-out coming so just gave it to him). Annoyingly, was back to playing well after that in the 3/4 play-off coming out of that 5-1.

So, one point I'd like to query:

Is playing a deliberate foul allowed in most 8-ball formats? I ran out a rack and left myself hooked on the 8. Nothing on earth was going to see me hit the ball and come out good. So, I attempted to cluster up the opponents balls with a deliberate foul. He called over the TD and had a mini-rant. I kind of got let off, based on the fact I left him on two balls and played the shot poorly. Got told I can't do that again. I apologized, but then it was never made explicitly clear I couldn't do that to begin with, so not sure why I apologized. He missed, and I kind of felt bad banking the 8 to win the rack (again, not sure I should have felt bad, but I did). He took it really well and gave a little table tap, but the fuss before kind of got to me. So wanted to pose the question in terms of general 8-ball play. Deliberate foul is acceptable or not? I know there's 3-foul in 9/10-ball. I kind of assumed most 8-ball would be played in this way too.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... So, I attempted to cluster up the opponents balls with a deliberate foul. He called over the TD and had a mini-rant. I kind of got let off, based on the fact I left him on two balls and played the shot poorly. Got told I can't do that again. ....

I doubt that they are playing by any official rule set. Sounds like the usual problem in bars in the US. And I doubt that the owner/TD will tell you what the rules are ahead of time.

By all of the official rule sets that I know of is the US, it is permitted to foul intentionally (with what would otherwise be a legal stroke) to make it harder for your opponent. But like I said, none of those rule sets applies to that room's tournaments.

 

[Flakeandrun]

I doubt that they are playing by any official rule set. Sounds like the usual problem in bars in the US. And I doubt that the owner/TD will tell you what the rules are ahead of time.

By all of the official rule sets that I know of is the US, it is permitted to foul intentionally (with what would otherwise be a legal stroke) to make it harder for your opponent. But like I said, none of those rule sets applies to that room's tournaments.

Thanks Bob. Perhaps it is to speed up play, as there was a lot of entrants? The TD is a nice enough guy, he was pretty impartial and let both of us express our thoughts. He's the kind of guy who will probably type up the rules and post them in the tournament group now.

 

[soyale]

intentional fouls can and will come up as an important part of the game of 8 ball. Shame to see them not allowed

 

[maha]

if not playing ball in hand anywhere on the table for a foul or scratch, then in most all places it isnt allowed, or looked down upon enough to make the opponent mad.
and rightly so or each will just touch the cue ball over and over if there is no shot.
and some places also say if you dont hit the 8 then you lose the game.

certainly most all give ball in hand or you lose the game if you foul on the 8.
some bars just say try to hit it honestly.

but it is up to you to learn all the rules when you go to a new room or tournament, if you dont bother than anything that happens to you is your own fault.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

Did he get ball in hand? If so there should have been no problem.

 

[Swighey]

Intentional fouls are part and parcel of 8 ball. It's rare that they are the best move, but they are certainly allowed. I'm surprised at the TD as most tournaments in Asia are played according to the actual rules (and everyone knows them). However, I've never been to China so it could be a Chinese thing, or could just be the TD, or could just be the TD saving face because one player didn't know the rule and made a fuss.

 

[maha]

get used to it pool rooms, and bars, and tournaments all over have different rules. few follow what the tv rules are. thats just the way it is, and thats for almost every game.

 

[Flakeandrun]

certainly most all give ball in hand or you lose the game if you foul on the 8.
some bars just say try to hit it honestly.

Was on, but didn't pocket the 8 when I fouled.

but it is up to you to learn all the rules when you go to a new room or tournament, if you dont bother than anything that happens to you is your own fault.

I think it was something that perhaps hadn't even been considered. It was late at night, and the opponent, like everyone else, wanted to win. He was pretty ratty at first. All resolved peacefully enough.

Did he get ball in hand? If so there should have been no problem.

Ball in hand given. I mean, I picked it up and gave it to him once it settled (based on my understanding - whether that was right or wrong)

Intentional fouls are part and parcel of 8 ball. It's rare that they are the best move, but they are certainly allowed. I'm surprised at the TD as most tournaments in Asia are played according to the actual rules (and everyone knows them). However, I've never been to China so it could be a Chinese thing, or could just be the TD, or could just be the TD saving face because one player didn't know the rule and made a fuss.

Usually in China, they are playing Chinese-8 rules on the American table (except black must be called). I had assumed this was the case. I think you are right about the face saving. I think the TD is a decent enough guy, most issues in China are resolved through 'social harmony' and a compromise from both sides. I'd left him on two balls, as I executed the deliberate foul poorly. He didn't run-out, and I banked the 8. He took that graciously. But the stink about the deliberate foul I played arose from uncertainty about the rule set (which was neither of our fault, and could have been the predominate reason for the TD's impartiality).

It wasn't as salty as other experiences I've had, and as I mentioned, the TD is the kind of guy who is likely going to clarify in detail a more specific rule set in the tournament group chat. Wish I didn't let it get me down (I think the opponent also benefited from the situation from a performance perspective. He had the fire in him after. I did not. Good player)

 

[easy-e]

Did y'all see that kid lose hill/hill in the finals of the Juniors tournament in Louisiana? His last ball was tied up with the 8 ball, so he played his opponent's last ball into a bad position. They called it a "loss of game". He took it pretty hard.

 

[Flakeandrun]

Did y'all see that kid lose hill/hill in the finals of the Juniors tournament in Louisiana? His last ball was tied up with the 8 ball, so he played his opponent's last ball into a bad position. They called it a "loss of game". He took it pretty hard.

I didn't see that. Is it on the tube of you? That is a painful way to go in a final.

 

[MmmSharp]

Did he get ball in hand? If so there should have been no problem.

This is the question. Common bar rule is no bih and no intentional fouls. Even legal intentional safties are looked down on in a lot of bar pool. If you intentionally fouled knowing no bih, could end in bar fight some places i have been.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

This is the question. Common bar rule is no bih and no intentional fouls. Even legal intentional safties are looked down on in a lot of bar pool. If you intentionally fouled knowing no bih, could end in bar fight some places i have been.

Right but I thought flake inferred there were pros there.

 

[Flakeandrun]

This is the question. Common bar rule is no bih and no intentional fouls. Even legal intentional safties are looked down on in a lot of bar pool. If you intentionally fouled knowing no bih, could end in bar fight some places i have been.

He got ball in hand. This wasn't a bar.

Was on, but didn't pocket the 8 when I fouled.

I think it was something that perhaps hadn't even been considered. It was late at night, and the opponent, like everyone else, wanted to win. He was pretty ratty at first. All resolved peacefully enough.

Ball in hand given. I mean, I picked it up and gave it to him once it settled (based on my understanding - whether that was right or wrong)

Usually in China, they are playing Chinese-8 rules on the American table (except black must be called). I had assumed this was the case. I think you are right about the face saving. I think the TD is a decent enough guy, most issues in China are resolved through 'social harmony' and a compromise from both sides. I'd left him on two balls, as I executed the deliberate foul poorly. He didn't run-out, and I banked the 8. He took that graciously. But the stink about the deliberate foul I played arose from uncertainty about the rule set (which was neither of our fault, and could have been the predominate reason for the TD's impartiality).

It wasn't as salty as other experiences I've had, and as I mentioned, the TD is the kind of guy who is likely going to clarify in detail a more specific rule set in the tournament group chat. Wish I didn't let it get me down (I think the opponent also benefited from the situation from a performance perspective. He had the fire in him after. I did not. Good player)

Detailed above.

 

[Flakeandrun]

Right but I thought flake inferred there were pros there.

No. Amateur only.

Played in a one evening tournament last night. Amateur only, races to 5, 8-ball, 9foot, black only called.

First line of thread

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

No. Amateur only.

First line of thread

Ah. I read into it too much when you said you were “feeling a bit for the pros, but they are paid to be there”

 

[Flakeandrun]

Ah. I read into it too much when you said you were “feeling a bit for the pros, but they are paid to be there”

All good, I tend to waffle on with my morning coffee
Was a tiring event, and I'd never thought about events like PLP, or other short race events being that tiring. But I get it a little more now, which was what I meant.

 

[maha]

so since it was ball in hand you are perfectly okay to safe him like you did. i guess customs says differently there.

chinese are into saving face and stuff like that, so i see where you have to expect funny things happening on decisions.

but he instead of not running out should have hid you again behind his balls. while slightly opening them up a little so he could use them if you did get a good hit and miss making it. especially if the 3 foul loss rule was in effect.

 

[Flakeandrun]

so since it was ball in hand you are perfectly okay to safe him like you did. i guess customs says differently there.

But at that point, it was only considered BIH by me, because I picked it up and gave it to him. It was only when I put it in his hand and he asked me why I did that where things got muddied. I think if I didn't question him back, or I left the ball on the table to begin with, he would have began to rack them up for the next rack. Of course that's only a guess at this point.

chinese are into saving face and stuff like that, so i see where you have to expect funny things happening on decisions.

Face is an integral part of culture here (as it is in our respective, and other cultures too. But perhaps presented in ways unfamiliar, or strange to us). Cultural differences exist in many forms. It's important to be open, understanding and fair. Doesn't matter who you are dealing with. I think this was handled much better than other situations I've been in here. Whether playing locals, or expats. Everyone has their own expectations, behaviors and ways of being a dirty little shark too haha

but he instead of not running out should have hid you again behind his balls. while slightly opening them up a little so he could use them if you did get a good hit and miss making it. especially if the 3 foul loss rule was in effect.

After we decided to continue with the game, he actually made the first shot quite well, using the BIH to split the balls further. He used the one ball I shouldn't have left loose (like I said, played the deliberate foul poorly). Then he missed, and It was a pretty bad miss on his part, as he absolutely should have finished. Left me with only the bank shot on, which I took and finished.

 

[skogstokig]

This is the question. Common bar rule is no bih and no intentional fouls. Even legal intentional safties are looked down on in a lot of bar pool. If you intentionally fouled knowing no bih, could end in bar fight some places i have been.

what about if your last ball is or gets surrounded by three or more of his suite? i've seen it happen. sometimes you have to take a scratch