The Use of BHE - FHE Theory

I know that there are strokes that look like crap and , yet, do get the job done. I know that all strokes do not look the same. But I also know that there are strokes that just do not work- shooting arts mentions dwell time- tip on cue ball as being far underrated- I agree with that 100%. in fact, this is the very essence of my argument.

Simple example. Set an OB 3 feet from a pocket, set a CB in direct straight line to the OB and pocket- 5 feet away from the OB. Ask Shane Van Boning and a random 400 Fargo players to sink the OB and bring the CB back to exact spot of origin. Have each player hit the CB in same place and with same speed- does everyone here think that the CB lands where intended BOTH for Shane and the 400 Fargo player?

I do not- why? because Shane's stroke is way more trained and precise to get through that CB and impart enough spin to bring it back where he desires. People are not robots. --- and to me, the difference in pool player's ability has very, very much to do with the quality of their stroke - regardless of what that stroke looks like - I think a quality stroke matters, and a quality stroke imparts consistent dwell time on the CB.
 
mikemosconi said:
I know that there are strokes that look like crap and , yet, do get the job done. I know that all strokes do not look the same. But I also know that there are strokes that just do not work- shooting arts mentions dwell time- tip on cue ball as being far underrated- I agree with that 100%. in fact, this is the very essence of my argument.

Simple example. Set an OB 3 feet from a pocket, set a CB in direct straight line to the OB and pocket- 5 feet away from the OB. Ask Shane Van Boning and a random 400 Fargo players to sink the OB and bring the CB back to exact spot of origin. Have each player hit the CB in same place and with same speed- does everyone here think that the CB lands where intended BOTH for Shane and the 400 Fargo player?

I do not- why? because Shane's stroke is way more trained and precise to get through that CB and impart enough spin to bring it back where he desires. People are not robots. --- and to me, the difference in pool player's ability has very, very much to do with the quality of their stroke - regardless of what that stroke looks like - I think a quality stroke matters, and a quality stroke imparts consistent dwell time on the CB.
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He's just learned how to impart the appropriate physics more effectively. Nothing else is different. If they hit the ball in the exact same manner; place speed, dwell time etc. It will be the same shot, with the same outcome.
 
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mikemosconi said:
I know that there are strokes that look like crap and , yet, do get the job done. I know that all strokes do not look the same. But I also know that there are strokes that just do not work- shooting arts mentions dwell time- tip on cue ball as being far underrated- I agree with that 100%. in fact, this is the very essence of my argument.

Simple example. Set an OB 3 feet from a pocket, set a CB in direct straight line to the OB and pocket- 5 feet away from the OB. Ask Shane Van Boning and a random 400 Fargo players to sink the OB and bring the CB back to exact spot of origin. Have each player hit the CB in same place and with same speed- does everyone here think that the CB lands where intended BOTH for Shane and the 400 Fargo player?

I do not- why? because Shane's stroke is way more trained and precise to get through that CB and impart enough spin to bring it back where he desires. People are not robots. --- and to me, the difference in pool player's ability has very, very much to do with the quality of their stroke - regardless of what that stroke looks like - I think a quality stroke matters, and a quality stroke imparts consistent dwell time on the CB.
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What’s been measured is that tip contact time actually is overrated. On average tip contact time is between 1-2 ms. A very soft tip can make that 2-3 ms. A hard tip can take that as low as 0.8 ms. Your stroke action whether it is swooping, straight, accelerating, decelerating, or constant speed will have an influence on tip contact time an order of magnitude LESS than the tip hardness will.

But what you’re saying about SVB vs. a Fargo 400 is more akin to skill and muscle memory. SVB know his intentions. He’s practiced trying to achieve that exact outcome. He’s trained mentally to know the tip position needed. He has the feel for what that delivery should be to achieve that outcome. He’s reinforced neural pathways in his brain to recall that accurately. He has the muscle memory from “brain > nerves > muscles” to reproduce the motor skills that will achieve the exact outcome he’s anticipating. All that adds to to become his stroke. His technique is sufficient to not undermine his intentions. But it’s not his technique that achieves the results. It’s his training that does. A FargoRate 400 could have SVBs stroke magically gifted to him and still would need to work on his feel and knowledge.
 
Flakeandrun said:
If they hit the ball in the exact same manner; place speed, dwell time etc. It will be the same shot, with the same outcome.
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Yes, but…

…“dwell time” and “accelerating through the ball” are said to be beneficial stroke qualities, but I’ve never understood what they add to the angle-spot-speed formula for stroke result?

pj
chgo
 
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Flakeandrun said:
He's just learned how to impart the appropriate physics more effectively. Nothing else is different. If they hit the ball in the exact same manner; place speed, dwell time etc. It will be the same shot, with the same outcome.
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Yes, agreed - but it is the stroke that applies the physics more effectively- I think?
 
Flakeandrun said:
He's just learned how to impart the appropriate physics more effectively. Nothing else is different. If they hit the ball in the exact same manner; place speed, dwell time etc. It will be the same shot, with the same outcome.
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Wrong word... "consistently and more reliably" would be more accurate for sake of the conversation.

The numbers are the numbers. Long division on foolscap or scientific calculator. The method you use to reach the answer does not alter the answer.
 
MattPoland said:
Sorry man. Physics is physics. Tip offset. Speed. Direction. Mass. That’s about it.
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The grip between the tip and cue ball is important. This and possibly the "one born every minute" thing is why people buy forty dollar chalk now. Of course we bought $420 worth of racing tires that gave us two nights of short tracking if we were lucky.

Something critical and rarely if ever mentioned is the grip between cue ball and cloth. Might be the most important variable and it is the most ignored.


Flakeandrun said:
Yes, a pause is something that is necessary and all players incorporate
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No pause is necessary and many players don't use one. A piston in a cylinder must pause twice a crankshaft revolution, top dead center and bottom dead center. This doesn't apply to our arms or cue sticks. Many of the Filipino players have no pause in their stroke no more than there is a pause when a circle track car reverses direction. Since our hands aren't constrained by a cylinder we can use a curved path to swap directions. Sometimes I use a pause, more commonly my stroke has enough going on that neither my hand or the cue ever stops.

Sorry to contradict you but that must pause myth is one that needs to disappear. I think the pendulum stroke and theory got in the way of what has to be in this case.

Hu
 
Flakeandrun said:
One doesn't bother. One finds better ways to spend their time lol
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Why bother. Why bother knowing the weight of your cue, why bother knowing your cue length, why bother knowing the diameter of your tip, why bother knowing the hardness of your tip. Why bother. The natural pivot point (NPL) is just another characteristic of a cue that one can measure to gain knowledge of the cue’s performance. Also, knowledge of NPL between cues will give one an indication how to apply spin between the cues. For example if I went from a Revo (NPL around 19”) to a Cynergy (NPL around 14”) I know that I would be applying a lot less FHE.



From your perspective, with all the cue sports that you seemly participate in, I can understand why you would say “why bother”. With your experience you can probable pick up any cue and have it figured out within several shots. However, for me, I need to apply my analytical skills to give me a good starting point to begin to develop those skills with the time I left on this earth.
 
JCraig said:
On the use of BHE and FHE, my theory is that unless your bridge length matches the natural pivot length (NPL) of the cue you must use a combination of BHE and FHE to bring the natural pivot point into the aim line of the shot. This is especially true for my Predator Z shaft with a NPL of 18” and my bridge length of 12”. With my bridge length I calculated that I need 5mm of FHE (just a 1mm less than ½ a tip of my 12mm tip) and pivot out the remainder with BHE to the miss cue limit of 5/8”. My spin shot procedure seems to work for me and is fairly simple. For pure left or right spin, at my bridge length, I put my tip at the bottom center of the cue ball move tip with my bridge hand over until the bottom center is almost to the edge of my tip and BHE pivot out to miss cue limit. For top or bottom left or right hand spin I move bridge over a ¼ tip of FHE. FHE is fairly easy calculate through the use of similar triangles. One triangle would be the miss cue limit and the NPL. The other would be FHE and the NPL minus the bridge length. For me, my Z shaft and a miss cue limit of 5/8”:

FHE = (miss cue limit / NPL) X (NPL – bridge length):

FHE = (.625/18) X (18 – 12)

= .208” or 5.3 mm

Now if I owned Cynergy with NPL of 14" my FHE correction would be a little less than 1mm. My shot procedure could be to BHE pivot out to the limit and just think about FHE.


Patrick, Dr Dave what do you think, sound like a plausible theory?

View attachment 760236
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What the actual fk does that have to do with hitting a ball with a stick
 
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Texas Carom Club said:
What the actual fk does that have to do with hitting a ball with a stick
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You may not be aware of this but actually there is a lot of stuff that happens when you hit a ball with a stick. You may want to cuss Gaspard-Gustave de Coriolis, a Frenchman no less, that wrote a book, way back in 1835, named Mathematical Theory of Spin, Friction, and Collision in the Game of Billiards that explains what happens when you hit a ball with a stick. If you are curious about this phenomena, of what happens when you hit a ball with a stick, you are in luck, his book was translated into english in 2005, so that you don’t have to brush up on your French, and can bought on Amazon here:



https://www.amazon.com/Mathematical...ix=Gaspard-Gustave+de+Coriolis,aps,189&sr=8-1



Although, I must warn you, one reviews called it a steaming pile of equations.
 
JCraig said:
Why bother. Why bother knowing the weight of your cue, why bother knowing your cue length, why bother knowing the diameter of your tip, why bother knowing the hardness of your tip. Why bother. The natural pivot point (NPL) is just another characteristic of a cue that one can measure to gain knowledge of the cue’s performance. Also, knowledge of NPL between cues will give one an indication how to apply spin between the cues. For example if I went from a Revo (NPL around 19”) to a Cynergy (NPL around 14”) I know that I would be applying a lot less FHE.



From your perspective, with all the cue sports that you seemly participate in, I can understand why you would say “why bother”. With your experience you can probable pick up any cue and have it figured out within several shots. However, for me, I need to apply my analytical skills to give me a good starting point to begin to develop those skills with the time I left on this earth.
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I wonder when and who made up all this shit in pool

Stupid acronyms and equations to make themselves feel better about not being any good in pool
 
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