LD shaft and miscues.

straightline said:
Ok but isn't a miscue an extreme type of deflection?
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The LD shaft is supposed to be LD because it deflects instead of the CB deflecting, so, if anything (although certainly it's really nothing), the LD shaft would miscue more, as at the border line of whether your poor stroke hit the CB far enough to the limit of your tip, the LD shaft would deflect and provide the rest of the miscue.
 
oscargrouch said:
The LD shaft is supposed to be LD because it deflects instead of the CB deflecting, so, if anything (although certainly it's really nothing), the LD shaft would miscue more, as at the border line of whether your poor stroke hit the CB far enough to the limit of your tip, the LD shaft would deflect and provide the rest of the miscue.
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Kinda leaning toward that notion.
 
For those who are interested in the technical details of why squirt happens, here is Ron Shepard's paper about it. He has a lot of equations, but he also gives good, practical summaries of useful results. He also describes a number of experiments that were done back in the early 2000s when this was a hot research topic.

 
straightline said:
Yeah buffer zone. If the LD miscued less, it would have better hold at the limit or less propensity to scoop the ball.
That might be backwards. Why I'm asking.
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You are going to miscue less if you stroke through the ball no matter what kind of tip, shaft , ect. you are using, worry more about learning to develop a good stroke than what tip, shaft ect. you are using.
 
SSP said:
You are going to miscue less if you stroke through the ball no matter what kind of tip, shaft , ect. you are using, worry more about learning to develop a good stroke than what tip, shaft ect. you are using.
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I hit the ball ok as long as it's not on the bottom. My learning speed, I'd have to dedicate maybe a hundred hours to long draw shots before that worked reliably. Not gonna happen just yet. The one thing that made the big difference was stroking to a spot 2 or 3 inches past the rock. When I'm able to do that, everything works flawlessly. Fortunately I can practice that stroke with nothing but the stick.
 
Bob Jewett said:
For those who are interested in the technical details of why squirt happens, here is Ron Shepard's paper about it. He has a lot of equations, but he also gives good, practical summaries of useful results. He also describes a number of experiments that were done back in the early 2000s when this was a hot research topic.

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… and simple explanations, illustrations, and super-slow-motion-video demonstrations can be found here:

 
dr_dave said:
… and simple explanations, illustrations, and super-slow-motion-video demonstrations can be found here:

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Here's a quote from there (the underlined part is what I mentioned before):
With an off-center hit, while the tip is in contact with the CB, the CB starts to move forward and turn. The ball turn pushes the tip away sideways causing the end mass of the shaft to move. Mass doesn’t like to move, so it pushes back during contact (because for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). That’s why the CB deflects (squirts) off line.
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pj
chgo
 
SSP said:
Letting your stroke stop as soon as you contact the cue ball, if you are doing that when trying to draw the cue ball I'll bet you are launching the cue ball off the table.
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Yes, "clenching" the arm to slow/stop the cue can dip the tip, and other unwelcome stroke effects.

Many players believe stroking "through the ball" imparts some extra or special effect on the CB - I think it just avoids common stroke issues like that.

pj
chgo
 
stroking through the cue ball allows you to contact a close object ball and pocketing it with your cue stick as the original object balls passes. too hard to see and catch you. a useful skill to hone..
 
maha said:
what is this miscue thing you people talk about?
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Shtrate anser: Aside from the flack back there, I was wondering if deflection had any kind of correlation to miscues. Thankfully nobody else miscues and most were happy to offer credible responses.
 
maha said:
stroking through the cue ball allows you to contact a close object ball and pocketing it with your cue stick as the original object balls passes. too hard to see and catch you. a useful skill to hone..
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As Fast Eddie did against Fats early in their first match.
 
and patrick you should be aware dipping your tip can be costly in other ways.
Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, "clenching" the arm to slow/stop the cue can dip the tip, and other unwelcome stroke effects.

Many players believe stroking "through the ball" imparts some extra or special effect on the CB - I think it just avoids common stroke issues like that.

pj
chgo
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straightline said:
Less? More,? Same?

I would think less if anything. I recall Dr Dave had an issue jumping w/LD shaft. Not sure if that's even related.
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Given all other factors being equal, no difference. Outside of a stroke issue, I think chalk and tip condition are really the only causes of miscues. Maybe if the cueball was un-usually dirty or in bad shape.
 
straightline said:
All the chalk and tip threads. Just an oddball thought that LD might be less likely to slip past the ball or at least have a buffer zone that's missing in the old high mass wood shafts.
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Nope……been playing with a LD roasted maple shaft for two weeks. I really like it so much I just ordered another one 12.75mm, 4.0 ozs. Flat Faced…….pretty nice specs……..the one I have now matched one of my shafts exactly……it’s
12.85 mm, 3.8 ozs., Flat Faced and my orig. shaft is a Scruggs shaft 12.8mm, 3.8 ozs. My RMS has a medium tip that’s
being changed right now to a Kamui Black Clear soft tip that’s on most of my cue shafts, including my Scruggs cue.

Anyway, back to your original query, when you venture into the miscue zone on the cue ball, the same rule applies to
LD shafts and all shafts. Of course, a thinner shaft will give you more tip versatility. For example. A 12mm shaft will
allow you to aim more tips of English from dead center than a 13mm tip. Once you venture into the outer perimeter
on the circular shape of a cue ball, you can’t maintain enough friction to control the cue ball reliably, exceptions being
masse’ shots and jump shots. Generally it’s about 20% in practical terms means you have 80% surface area to use.

Now this LD shaft I am using delivers the cue ball the length of the 9’ table with amazing accuracy. Frozen rail bank shots to opposite corner pockets, 8’ cut shots, and bank shots are easier and more natural. But venture into the miscue zone on the cue ball and it is going to happen. Besides, what kind of awful shape did you play to have to bridge or aim for that type shot? If you have to use extreme English to make a shot, then re-evaluate your options, like maybe play a smart safety?
 
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Bavafongoul said:
...when you venture into the miscue zone on the cue ball, the same rule applies to LD shafts and all shafts.
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Yep.

Bavafongoul said:
Of course, a thinner shaft will give you more tip versatility. For example. A 12mm shaft will
allow you to use more tips of English from dead center than a 13mm tip.
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The actual tip/ball contact point is the same for both for any amount of spin, and there's no difference in the amount of spin available or the miscue limit. Different size tips just give you different size "rulers" (tip widths) for measuring the same things. That's one of the reasons I like to talk about tip offset in terms of the contact point's distance from center ball rather than "tip widths" of cue movement. The other reason is that it makes you more accurately aware of where you're hitting the CB, and works the same with all tip widths.

pj
chgo
 
dr_dave said:
If the shaft is very stiff and the cue is heavy, miscues might be more likely. See the last section here:


Otherwise, there should be no difference.
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played my best pool with a 20oz, stiff, ivory ferruled cue. never noticed any excess of miscues. if your tip is shaped right and you don't get stupidly far from center is doesn't matter.
 
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