Elbow Drop - Billiards Digest October 2024

[nataddrho]

It’s a funny discussion all of the time. If you are setting your tip close to the cue ball, within a half inch or less, then the amount of dip at impact caused by a stationary elbow swing compared to a straight line through space is on the order of (or less than) stroke accuracy noise.

Stand closer to the target to hit the bullseye more often.

 

[skogstokig]

The quote is wrong. There are lots of snooker players who drop their elbows and some pool players who don't. So... the speaker may be referring to general trends, but the statement has many exceptions.

In addition, there are snooker players who on a single stroke from address to finish will drop, raise and drop their elbow again. It's easy to see examples of this if you watch pro snooker videos.

that makes more sense. i don't know anyone who has zero elbow drop in either game. maybe alison fisher in pool or john higgins in snooker. i think chris melling and fedor drops and they have really pure strokes

 

[Mensabum]

Nothing like something new to discuss

 

[Mensabum]

I'm going to show You a video from 1983.

A Non Heated Brunswick Anniversary 3C table.

The cloth was Simonis, (3 months old) K55 rubber.

Myself, playing 3C 'Trick shots' which require a 'Stroke'!

Notice I do Not contact the CB with 'Visible' force.

This reminds me of some of the things Grady did.

 

[trob]

I don’t have an elbow drop and I play pretty damn good. It just never worked for me. My timing was always off so I focused on a piston stroke and it works.

 

[straightline]

Was looking for a more Technical/physics styles answers

Banging is not real technical. For instance I used to play a lot of center ball because at the time pocketing was more accurate or at least less complicated and more reliable. I brought this to the billiard table as well. No special reason other than that's where I was at and it worn't broke. I would shoot nearly everything with the natural carom because the angles were predictable. It's not like I went through the whole program. It was a supplement to pool only. The only reason I started running the ball like you're supposed to was I noticed you got all kinds of kisses without english. (Duh ) Anyway I did eventually learn to move the ball more efficiently.

Nothing new...

 

[mr3cushion]

Banging is not real technical. For instance I used to play a lot of center ball because at the time pocketing was more accurate or at least less complicated and more reliable. I brought this to the billiard table as well. No special reason other than that's where I was at and it worn't broke. I would shoot nearly everything with the natural carom because the angles were predictable. It's not like I went through the whole program. It was a supplement to pool only. The only reason I started running the ball like you're supposed to was I noticed you got all kinds of kisses without english. (Duh ) Anyway I did eventually learn to move the ball more efficiently.

Nothing new...

'Banging' interesting word, I'll come back to that.

What does 'Playing a lot of 'Center-ball' have to do with the Topic, 'Elbow Drop'?

Playing 'Pool' to a certain level can be accomplished with 'Center ball/Vertical axis' Only. More force may be needed for certain shots, where if played with, 'Side-effect' would definitely make 'Position Play' much easier!

A 'Natural-Carom angle' is only perfect when the CB contacts the OB with a 'Certain Quantity of the OB/Speed to the first cushion.

After the 1st rail contact, the angles to the 2nd, 3rd... can differ with various effects applied.

A player can NOT play Top 3C without the 'Mastery of Applying Effect to the CB'!

What 'Banging' means to me, as at one time being a Top 3C player.

A 'Banger/Banging means, that player has No concept of what 'Proper Strokes' to apply for each shot!

Has No knowledge of the 'Proper Delivery of the cue/Timing of a stroke/Tempo of the cues run up to the CB/Speed that required to achieve Complete Control over the 3 balls in Carom/3 cushion Billiards!

In the video I presented, did it seem like I didn't have control of the cue/CB/effect of the CB/quantity of the OB?

Throughout over 60 years of playing, I've determined what a 'Perfect Stroke' should look/feel like.

The player that achieves the 'Maximum Effect required with the Least amount of physical force'!

 

[straightline]

'Banging' interesting word, I'll come back to that.

What does 'Playing a lot of 'Center-ball' have to do with the Topic, 'Elbow Drop'?

The topic was your clip of your perfect spin stroke. Most people have other things to do with their arms than commit to that compact Hopkins stroke.

 

[mr3cushion]

This reminds me of some of the things Grady did.

You mentioned Grady, We were very good friends for many years and had several conversations about, Stroke/Effect (English) Banking (Kicking).

I shared some of my, Techniques/Theories/Systems with him. Some were demonstrated in his work.

I'll relate a little story from the mid 90's, A retired CPD/pool player was having a Grand Opening for his new room on the Northwest side in Chicago.

Being from Chicago, he asked if I would hold a 3C clinic/Artistic 3C shots for the event.

He also told me he had contacted, Grady and Mike Massey at the same time to do respectively the same in Pool.

As I stated, Grady and I had been friends and were happy to be working together! I had met Mike a few times on the road, but not personally.

The event took place on Saturday afternoon/evening. I was up first around noon with a fundamental 3C clinic, I would be back around 7pm for an exhibition of 3C Trick shots.

Around 2pm Grady displayed his talents/knowledge in 9 ball and 1 pocket. Mike was to close out the show around 9pm that evening with his wonderful exhibition of Pool tricks/Stroke!

All three of us talked together throughout the day, when it came to my time to perform, Mike and Grady watched the show. Grady gave Mike a little 411 on my show.

I went through my routine, and it went very well that night! Most shots being made on the 1st or 2nd attempt, only trying in 3 attempts on all shots.

When it was over, Mike came running over to me and asked, "How do you get so much action on the cue ball, without hitting it hard?"

I explained a lot of practice with the correct, 'Concepts/Techniques' I learned from Great 3C Champions that were excellent Artistic players.

Like Juan Navarro, Marcelo Lopez both from Argentina and Louis Campos, Roberto Rojas form Mexico.

Mike went on that night to Wow the crowd with his, 'Powerful Stroke'!

 

[mr3cushion]

The topic was your clip of your perfect spin stroke. Most people have other things to do with their arms than commit to that compact Hopkins stroke.

A 'Compact' stroke is Far more accurate and powerful when applied properly!

The issue is, Most players don't know how to apply the correct, 'Techniques/Physics/Collision/speeds'!

 

[straightline]

A 'Compact' stroke is Far more accurate and powerful when applied properly!

The issue is, Most players don't know how to apply the correct, 'Techniques/Physics/Collision/speeds'!

Can be but the problem for most is the contraction rate 1) requires specialized development and 2) zooms out your touch resolution to a space of 2" or so compared to the 2' give or take in a normal stroke.

 

[mr3cushion]

Can be but the problem for most is the contraction rate 1) requires specialized development and 2) zooms out your touch resolution to a space of 2" or so compared to the 2' give or take in a normal stroke.

So, You think a '2' Follow-thru' is the Norm?

I'd like to hear the 'Accuracy stats' of that 2' follow-thru compared to 8-12"!

 

[straightline]

So, You think a '2' Follow-thru' is the Norm?

I'd like to hear the 'Accuracy stats' of that 2' follow-thru compared to 8-12"!

I said nothing of follow through. We're comparing long stroke vs short stroke. Gorst and Melling for instance. much more cognitive space and time than Hopkins I'd say. That Hopkins can play pinpoint is testament to his athletic ability and time spent developing it and not so much the prowess of the technique.

Couple other things about the stroke as applied to your use and 3C.
1) most of the cue stick speed is shunted into ball spin. Compare to pool which is more concerned with ball velocity.

2) The demo shots you played while all different entities are pretty much from the same genre of ball movement and speed. I'd also guess that because most standard 3C shots can be learned by rote and performed as stroke shots; the entire point being a single entity that has been thoroughly memorized.

 

[pt109]

Was looking for a more Technical/physics styles answers

They definitely mowed the green…..I preferred the Granito that Gil used at the Rack though.

 

[mr3cushion]

I said nothing of follow through. We're comparing long stroke vs short stroke. Gorst and Melling for instance. much more cognitive space and time than Hopkins I'd say. That Hopkins can play pinpoint is testament to his athletic ability and time spent developing it and not so much the prowess of the technique.

Couple other things about the stroke as applied to your use and 3C.
1) most of the cue stick speed is shunted into ball spin. Compare to pool which is more concerned with ball velocity.

2) The demo shots you played while all different entities are pretty much from the same genre of ball movement and speed. I'd also guess that because most standard 3C shots can be learned by rote and performed as stroke shots; the entire point being a single entity that has been thoroughly memorized.

Your initial reply to 'Me' "You guys play on superconducting equipment - given. Guys with the super pool strokes would probably be ejected."

I took that comment as, If 3C players didn't have, 2.5" Heated slates, 100% Nylon cloth, New Polished balls that We couldn't produce the same results we do under, 'Other/Older' conditions! Also to add, You feel/think/imagine Pool Players have 'Better Strokes' than 3C players as far as creating CB anomalies!

I've been doing this for 60 years, played many Pool players with Really Fine strokes, Marvin Henderson, Eddie Kelly, Jimmy Reid, Jimmy Fusco, Steve Mizerak...

None of them could come close in comparison for 'Finesse' of the stroke to the Top 3C players in the World, Then and Now!

Just a 'Clue' to me in reference to the 'Trick Shots' I presented that Your knowledge of 3C is Very limited/elementary!

I could go into the 'Nuances' the shots in the video I demonstrated, but for You, I'd just be 'spinning my tires'!

 

[mr3cushion]

They definitely mowed the green…..I preferred the Granito that Gil used at the Rack though.

Granito is a little slower than Simonis, also has a 'rough' feel to it.

 

[mr3cushion]

Straightline, this was also Your comment. "The topic was your clip of your perfect spin stroke."

ICBW, but I also thought You implied, I/3C players can't have a 'Perfect Center-Ball Stroke'!

Here's another little video for You.

This is from about 5 years ago, I was 75 then.

 

[lfigueroa]

Probably the best exhibition I've ever seen was Semih Sayginer at Chris's in Chicago some 20 years ago -- it was so good it was ridiculous and he did things you wouldn't have thought possible.

Having said that I would have to say that I've never seen balls behave the same way on a pool table, unless the balls were juiced. And by that I mean wiped with something like a silicone spray or WD40, which is something I have personally seen done during an exhibition before certain shots, like the jacked up three rail draw to pocket a ball in the jaws.

So, do you need a good/great stroke to get a lot of action: yes. But I think straighline is closer to the truth because I don't think you can get pool balls to behave the way 3C balls do on many exhibition shots.

Lou Figueroa

 

[mr3cushion]

Probably the best exhibition I've ever seen was Semih Sayginer at Chris's in Chicago some 20 years ago -- it was so good it was ridiculous and he did things you wouldn't have thought possible.

Having said that I would have to say that I've never seen balls behave the same way on a pool table, unless the balls were juiced. And by that I mean wiped with something like a silicone spray or WD40, which is something I have personally seen done during an exhibition before certain shots, like the jacked up three rail draw to pocket a ball in the jaws.

So, do you need a good/great stroke to get a lot of action: yes. But I think straighline is closer to the truth because I don't think you can get pool balls to behave the way 3C balls do on many exhibition shots.

Lou Figueroa

The Only reason 3C Artistic shots would be somewhat more difficult with 'Pool balls' on a 'Pool table' is because they are 'Smaller/lighter'!

Here's the 'Accordion' shot with 'Pool balls' on a 'Pool table'!

 

[straightline]

Straightline, this was also Your comment. "The topic was your clip of your perfect spin stroke."

ICBW, but I also thought You implied, I/3C players can't have a 'Perfect Center-Ball Stroke'!

Here's another little video for You.

This is from about 5 years ago, I was 75 then.

Not at all what I'm talking about. Typical champ.