Yes fastmanners, that is exactly my point. FargoRate is too accurate. I prefer the mystery.
kollegedave
(Un)Popular Opinion on Fargo Rate
- Thread starter kollegedave
- Start date
kollegedave
I can't argue with that. I like having a universal rating, but I don't play money games anymore and rarely play proper tournaments, so so for me it is not an issue. I can certainly see how a vague local rating or no rating at all can stimulate participation in tournaments and action matches.
but before fargorate you knew who the favorites were as well? there's a reason tommy kennedy was such a big upset in the heyday of johnny and earl et al.
the way i see it is there are more contenders now. jefrey roda? hadn't heard of him before last year. the guys i listed all made finals in MR majors. it can happen. maybe not with 750's, but for sure with 790-800's.
Zerksies
Well-known member
I really didn't know how good i was till fargo ratings. I know the top pro men are very good and thats how i judged how good players are. Yeah I'm not good as SVB he's 850+, but I didn't know i was in the low 700's and better then most of the women players. But i didn't realize that i was that far off.
I wish I shared your optimism.
Sure before FargoRate we knew some favorites, but you didn't know how much of a favorite. At least I didn't. Maybe others did.
Also, in the olden days where Tommy Kennedy won, I think pocket sizes were bigger, and the pocket shelf on GCs are shorter, and there is no doubt in my mind this helped in evening the playing field for some underdogs.
You'll note in my first post I mocked the shrinking modern pocket in suggesting that we play tournaments with 3 in. pockets.
Difficult conditions favor better players. Maybe this is "just" in that many people (sometimes myself included) want to see the best players play each other and the "best" player win. One cost of difficult conditions (I think) is outcomes that are more predictable. For me, that's less entertaining.
If there is a bright side to FargoRate, I like that you took note of Jeffrey Roda...whoever that guy is...that also plays 821 pool from the Philippines. The Philippines produces 815 players every 9 minutes. It's ridiculous, and I would assert proof that some magic sauce exists in competition that we may not fully understand, but FargoRate is letting us see it.
kollegedave
Yeah thats today, but some of these guys aren't far off the top players? I mean theres a least 10 guys that could really surprise the field if they make a few small improvements. It might be a few monthe, a year or just confidence, but the gap could be closed.
I hear what you and Fatboy are saying, but theres only been two guys that aren't One Pocket specialist that have broken thru, Fador and Filler. Everybody else is still getting run over by the best of the best, Alex, Evan, Tony, Busty, Chip...,
I am of the opinion that past generations simply didn't play as well as the modern players.. Full stop. And that's because the equipment/state of safety play at the time, allowed them to get away with it. I have watched some older matches, and the player's fundamentals were solid, but not "elite" in the way you see from players like Fedor and Filler.
The fast cloth, tight pockets, and much improved safety play across the board being much more punishing than safeties of yesteryear.... requires a level of execution far beyond that required in say, 1980.
And I disagree with the concept of Fargorates making matches predictable. I played Chohan, in the DCC 9 ball when he was ~775 FR, while mine was ~550 FR. I got 5 games, which was a wild overperformance, relative to the two Fargorates. I am likely a bit underrated as it is, so if I practice for months before Derby, I can presumably get to 650+ FR "performance", and the way Fargorate works is... There is somewhere between a 50-100 "range" of play quality, up or down, so I could play anywhere from 550-750 in any particular match. And my opponent could also play anywhere from 675-875.... It's the intersection of these two ranges that is important... I play in the upper range, and my opponent plays a little under their speed, and I can get a win. I just watched a match where Brandon Shuff was playing lights out, came up against Anthony Meglino, who admittedly has a slightly higher Fargorate, but Shuff made few mistakes.. And got beat 9-2. Even the Fargorate prediction was not close.
Is it gonna happen often? No. Did it happen often in years gone by? Probably not. Danny Diliberto often spoke during Accu-Stats matches about how younger players don't "fall down" the way they used to when he was competing. So my guess is that the gap between the elites and the rest of the field back then had more to do with the overall level of skill being lower, and sub-750 skill players tend to fold a little easier, due to poor fundamentals, which increases mental pressure.
Nowadays.... Great fundamentals is a basic requirement to even show up in these events.
But.. To dial it back a bit... The one thing a rating system really does is give a real, unfiltered view of one's weaknesses. Even in chess... There are whole writeups on the "most common flaws" in a player's game in certain rating ranges... Having an actual rating allows one to really break down their game into "winning components" for each level. And then to work on those components.
What "I" think is happening to push the overall level of player higher.. is that we can now see "what an /600/700/800/825/850 level Fargorate player is.. And we can dissect their game, to figure out What "exactly" needs to be worked on, to get from one level to the next, and so on.
In days gone past... It was not as easy to determine what really separated the #1/#2/#3 players in a certain geographic area. Now... one can look at their Fargorates.... And then check out matches of other players who play in the same ranges.. To determine what is "different" between players at two different Fargorates. This is a REALLY useful tool for a young player looking to improve.
I think that many Americans don't like Fargorate for a few reasons:
1. Most are far past the age where they will ever make any appreciable improvement to their fundamentals. America's serious player population is aging, as we have no easy means for young players to have access to quality equipment, unless daddy owns a pool hall, or there is a quality table at home. Europe has no such problems as the de facto standard way that people play and improve is through "semi-private clubs", where you get 24 hour access to the club + league membership, for ~$40 a month. There are kids in most clubs.
2. The "gambling culture" most American players grew up with.. Is a thing of the past. People have less spare spending money these days, and with Fargorate.. It is less and less easy to get into a lock game. Add in cell phone cameras and the internet to identify a player, and it is tough for anyone to travel around and gamble, and have the best of it.
Chess has the same basic rating setup... And the big difference is they get kids into the game early, the "end-all, be-all" of chess measurement IS the rating.... Not how much money they take home.
So these kids will study and practice all summer long, to go for a 50-100 point rating improvement. That rating improvement also equals REAL skill.
Fargorate "can" be used to generate this healthy mindset in younger players.. But it needs to be implemented across the board, with a "feeder system" if you will, so that they continue to have appropriate level competition as they improve. In chess.. EVERYBODY has a rating, outside of people completely new to tournament/club chess. This makes every rated game relevant, and psychologically... A club seeing a player improve 100 rating points over the summer, is a real source of pride. In pool.. What do you have to compare to that, until you take a scalp of a big name player?
Last edited:
Why is always about the "Americans" with you?
Aren't you originally from the US now living overseas?
Lou Figueroa
Because all the best players are Euro, Chinese, and (to a certain extent) Filipino.
One Pocket is not played seriously anywhere else but America. So.. It kind of stands to reason that players that spend most of their time grinding in American tournaments and gambling at One Pocket... Might be a little better.
A better question to ask is this... Do you like the group above's chances... If say.. Francisco Sanchez-Ruiz, Anton Raga, Ko Pin-Yi, or Chang Jung Lin actually had any "interest" in One Pocket?
One Pocket is not some magic game where brains automatically overcomes execution. If the players above had any reason to practice the specialty One Pocket shots/moves... They would dominate most of the players above, just like Filler dominated Chohan. To that extent.. You might want to watch out for Mickey Krause. He is improving technically.. And actually HAS an interest in One Pocket.. Although a few years ago when I watched him play one of the Polish players.. neither one of them really knew what they were doing.
Yes.. And I have been exposed to how Europe approaches the game differently.
You know... The Europeans that are basically dominating pool right now...
There "should be" no issue with stating where one's own country is falling down when it comes to sports/competition. The American pool scene is simply not "built" to produce champions, as it stands now. Nobody whinges when an American Football team is underperforming, and certain leadership failings are questioned by fans.
Don't shoot the messenger, buddy. You can't fix a problem before you identify the root cause.
I am not your buddy.
I was just curious about your background because you make a constant point of denigrating "Americans" in a manner I find odd for a citizen of this country. I am not the first here to point this out.
Lou Figueroa
knock yourself out
I make no bones whatsoever about being unhappy with the state of America these days.
We think we are the best at everything, while being demonstrably awful at a ton of things compared to other countries we roundly criticize in our self-delusion. Health Care, Education, Home Affordability...
The American Dream is dying before our eyes.. And we cannot see it. The uber rich are responsible for it all... And what do we do to try to change it? We elect one of them, and get a second one for free, to cut up our nation and sell it to the highest bidder.
you really have no clue. wow.
OK, I see your perspective more clearly now:
You are unhappy with your home country;
You casually lump us all together and say we find no fault with ourselves;
We are "self-delusional;"
The American dream -- whatever that is -- is dying. (Who knew)
We are blind to that;
The rich are to blame for the woes in this country;
And the last election 100% reflected the sentiment of the citizens of our country.
Given all that I conclude that your opinions are not well thought out and based upon broad, self-serving generalizations. That would apparently include your opinions of the American pool scene.
Thanks for clarifying all that.
Lou Figueroa
Last edited:
agree 100%. The fkng Germans are welcome to him. All he does is bum-kick the US from his little kraut hidey-hole.
I think before fargorate, "everyone in the know" knew the pecking order in the local pool hall and on the regional level. Tom wipes the floor with Paul, but Alex gives Tom the 7.
What was perhaps not as well known was what happened when players from different regions competed against each other.
Now, it's all known beforehand. Whether that is good or bad can be debated.
What was perhaps not as well known was what happened when players from different regions competed against each other.
Now, it's all known beforehand. Whether that is good or bad can be debated.
yep, pretty much. the days of rolling into town and sneaking up the locals are pretty much history.
Those days were done in 1995, 20 years before fargo.
The American "pool scene" suffers from the same failings of America, that everything else is..
Someone ALWAYS has to "make money". This leads to the only ways for "most" people to get involved with the game being through a business that has pool tables. Which tends to mean alcohol.. And commercial leagues.
Which cuts out most of America's youth from participating. This is not how ANY of this works in Europe.
The biggest tournament of the year excludes youth from participating.. Why? Because Diamond chooses to do that rather than find another site, because the casino throws them a few more dollars.
It is a simple, incontrovertible truth that America has MANY less youth players than Europe. I have given you the reason for it.... And you want to paint me as "un-American" for it. Your choice. I see you as just another old, out of touch pool player, that doesn't see the writing on the wall.
A patriot CAN (and I even argue, SHOULD) criticize the things their country does wrong. Being all "RAH RAH RAH, America is the BESTEST!!!", despite significant evidence to the contrary.. Is not patriotism. It is nationalism.