Lesser penalty than BIH for fouling?

Saturated Fats

Saturated Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lately my friends and I have been playing an alternate version of 8 Ball where the 1 and 15 must be pocketed in the side pockets. The 1 in a specific side pocket and the 15 in the opposite side pocket. We think it is much more challenging than standard 8 Ball. As you can imagine, a lot of focus is on the two special balls and it becomes more difficult to win if you don't get them pocketed earlier rather than later.

A large swing in momentum happens when a player fouls - moreso than in standard 8 Ball. The opposing play usually takes ball in hand and pockets his special 1 or 15 immediately and there by becomes the strong favorite to win the game.

I'd like to explore some kind of lesser punishment for a foul than ball in hand. A punishment that has a lesser effect. Can anyone suggest something that won't likely swing the game as much?

Just FYI, here are the (call shot) rules that we currently play with:
Same as 8 ball except: ​
1. The 1 and 15 are racked in a specific location. ​
2. The 1 and 15 go in specific pockets. ​
3. If you shoot your 1 or 15 in the wrong pocket, it spots right away and you keep shooting. ​
4. If your opponent shoots your 1 or 15 in any pocket, it stays down.​
 
Some thoughts:
1) the other player does not need to pot his ball in the side.
2) the fouling player must pot another in the side (the 2 or 14 for example)
3) one corner pocket, choosen by the opponent, is no longer available
4) fouling player must do a push out with the condition that the opponents ball must move closer to a side pocket, else BIH
 
There's a game called starball. I believe in it you can play it where it lies or from "the kitchen" on either end. It's still a powerful option when getting BIH but not as powerful as BIH anywhere.
 
I'm surprised that you use the "ball in hand anywhere" rule in this game. 1-and-15 is an old, traditional version of eight ball and it never had ball in hand anywhere. You only got ball in hand in the kitchen on a scratch.

Saturated Fats said:
... The opposing play usually takes ball in hand and pockets his special 1 or 15 immediately and there by becomes the strong favorite to win the game.
...
Click to expand...
 
I see in black ball or is it english eight ball, (ultimate pool one of those eightball variations with snooker cut pockets) They sometimes get two shots on a foul. For the game you are playing I was thinking if it's a foul where the cue ball is not pocketed two shots from where it lies, if the cue ball is pocketed two shots starting in the kitchen.
 
Saturated Fats said:
Lately my friends and I have been playing an alternate version of 8 Ball where the 1 and 15 must be pocketed in the side pockets. The 1 in a specific side pocket and the 15 in the opposite side pocket. We think it is much more challenging than standard 8 Ball. As you can imagine, a lot of focus is on the two special balls and it becomes more difficult to win if you don't get them pocketed earlier rather than later.

A large swing in momentum happens when a player fouls - moreso than in standard 8 Ball. The opposing play usually takes ball in hand and pockets his special 1 or 15 immediately and there by becomes the strong favorite to win the game.

I'd like to explore some kind of lesser punishment for a foul than ball in hand. A punishment that has a lesser effect. Can anyone suggest something that won't likely swing the game as much?

Just FYI, here are the (call shot) rules that we currently play with:
Same as 8 ball except: ​
1. The 1 and 15 are racked in a specific location. ​
2. The 1 and 15 go in specific pockets. ​
3. If you shoot your 1 or 15 in the wrong pocket, it spots right away and you keep shooting. ​
4. If your opponent shoots your 1 or 15 in any pocket, it stays down.​
Click to expand...
Sounds fun and I'm going to try and credit this game of yours. I'm getting quite bored with 9b.
 
djoverboard said:
I see in black ball or is it english eight ball, (ultimate pool one of those eightball variations with snooker cut pockets) They sometimes get two shots on a foul. For the game you are playing I was thinking if it's a foul where the cue ball is not pocketed two shots from where it lies, if the cue ball is pocketed two shots starting in the kitchen.
Click to expand...
I think the "two visit" rule allows you to just push out on the first shot. The rules of blackball (one name for English 8 ball) are in the WPA rules.

The argument against is that it has never been the way we do it over here.
 
A group of us use to play 1-15 8 Ball or as we called it "Alabama 8 Ball" with rules that lead to a strategic and nuanced game.

Alabama 8 Ball

(1-15)​




The rules for 8 Ball established by World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) with the following exceptions and modifications should apply to Alabama 8 Ball.




The Rack

The 1 and the 15 placed behind the 8 ball in the center of the rack.




The Break

Object balls driven off the table are spotted. If the 1 and/or the 15 are made on the break and the shooter fouls the balls are spotted. If the 1 and/or the 15 are pocketed on a legal break, they stay pocketed.




Open table / choosing groups / side pocket

If the 1 or the 15 is made on the break the shooter may choose to be the pocketed ball’s group by declaring so, otherwise he must declare the table to be open in order to shoot another group’s balls.

If the 1 and the 15 are pocketed on the break the table remains open.

The side pocket, to which 1 or 15 is to be made, is determined by the side that a ball is pocketed establishing the shooter’s group during an open table shot. An exception to this is when the 1 or the 15 is made on the break and shooter chooses that group, the sides are said to be open and is established by the first legally pocketed ball to that side. For example if a solid ball is legally made in one of the pockets on the right hand side of the table then the 1 ball must be made in the side pocket on the right hand side of the table and the 15 must be made in the left hand side pocket. Markers are used to mark which side the 1 and the 15 are to be made.




Spotting and Pocketing Balls

A ball, in the shooter’s group pocketed in a pocket other than the called pocket or on a foul shot, shall be spotted.

When a “Safety” is called and the ball is pocketed in a called pocket the shooter has the option of declaring, before the shot, whether the ball “stays down” in the pocket or “comes up” on the spot.

As a ball in the shooter’s group, the 1 or the 15 may be made at any time in any called pocket. If made in the correct side pocket it stays down. If made in any other called pocket it stays down until the shooters inning ends or the shooter pockets all of the balls in his group at which point the 1 or the 15 comes up on the spot and the shooter inning continues. (Alternatively, this game is also be played where the 1 or the 15 is spotted immediately after being made in the wrong pocket.)

If the shooter fouls and a ball or balls are made that are not in the shooter’s group the incoming shooter has the option spotting all, one, or none of the balls.

If the shooter pockets his opponent’s 1 or 15 in any pocket it stays down unless it was pocketed on a foul shot, then the opponent has the option of spotting the ball.

If an intentional object ball foul shot is played on the opponent’s 1 or 15, the opponent will have the option of pocketing the ball or, up to opponent’s judgment, restoring the ball to its original position (or near its original position frozen to interfering balls).

If a foul shot moves the opponent’s 1 or 15 the opponent has the option of, up to opponent’s judgment, restoring the 1 or the 15 to its original position (or near its original position frozen to interfering balls) or accepting the table as is.

Cue Ball fouls only (no touched object ball fouls).
 
Bob Jewett said:
I'm surprised that you use the "ball in hand anywhere" rule in this game. 1-and-15 is an old, traditional version of eight ball and it never had ball in hand anywhere. You only got ball in hand in the kitchen on a scratch.
Click to expand...
Thanks. In the kitchen may solve the problem best. We'll try it out and have the group (of usually 6 to 10 players) play that way instead for an entire day and see how it goes.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I'm surprised that you use the "ball in hand anywhere" rule in this game. 1-and-15 is an old, traditional version of eight ball and it never had ball in hand anywhere. You only got ball in hand in the kitchen on a scratch.
Click to expand...
There are situations where forcing CB in the kitchen makes it more difficult for the next player. Did the next player have the choice of CB in kitchen or playing it where it lies?
 
Saturated Fats said:
There are situations where forcing CB in the kitchen makes it more difficult for the next player. Did the next player have the choice of CB in kitchen or playing it where it lies?
Click to expand...
The rules of 8 ball that appear in the first BCA rule book in 1948 have the 1-and-15 rules. The only special ball-in-hand rule is that if all legal target balls are in the kitchen and your opponent scratches, the ball nearest the line can be spotted. This is not really a special rule since 14.1 had had the rule for a long time.

The only time the cue ball was in hand was after a scratch (or on the break).
 
JCraig said:
A group of us use to play 1-15 8 Ball or as we called it "Alabama 8 Ball" with rules that lead to a strategic and nuanced game.

Alabama 8 Ball

(1-15)​




The rules for 8 Ball established by World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) with the following exceptions and modifications should apply to Alabama 8 Ball.




The Rack

The 1 and the 15 placed behind the 8 ball in the center of the rack.




The Break

Object balls driven off the table are spotted. If the 1 and/or the 15 are made on the break and the shooter fouls the balls are spotted. If the 1 and/or the 15 are pocketed on a legal break, they stay pocketed.




Open table / choosing groups / side pocket

If the 1 or the 15 is made on the break the shooter may choose to be the pocketed ball’s group by declaring so, otherwise he must declare the table to be open in order to shoot another group’s balls.

If the 1 and the 15 are pocketed on the break the table remains open.

The side pocket, to which 1 or 15 is to be made, is determined by the side that a ball is pocketed establishing the shooter’s group during an open table shot. An exception to this is when the 1 or the 15 is made on the break and shooter chooses that group, the sides are said to be open and is established by the first legally pocketed ball to that side. For example if a solid ball is legally made in one of the pockets on the right hand side of the table then the 1 ball must be made in the side pocket on the right hand side of the table and the 15 must be made in the left hand side pocket. Markers are used to mark which side the 1 and the 15 are to be made.




Spotting and Pocketing Balls

A ball, in the shooter’s group pocketed in a pocket other than the called pocket or on a foul shot, shall be spotted.

When a “Safety” is called and the ball is pocketed in a called pocket the shooter has the option of declaring, before the shot, whether the ball “stays down” in the pocket or “comes up” on the spot.

As a ball in the shooter’s group, the 1 or the 15 may be made at any time in any called pocket. If made in the correct side pocket it stays down. If made in any other called pocket it stays down until the shooters inning ends or the shooter pockets all of the balls in his group at which point the 1 or the 15 comes up on the spot and the shooter inning continues. (Alternatively, this game is also be played where the 1 or the 15 is spotted immediately after being made in the wrong pocket.)

If the shooter fouls and a ball or balls are made that are not in the shooter’s group the incoming shooter has the option spotting all, one, or none of the balls.

If the shooter pockets his opponent’s 1 or 15 in any pocket it stays down unless it was pocketed on a foul shot, then the opponent has the option of spotting the ball.

If an intentional object ball foul shot is played on the opponent’s 1 or 15, the opponent will have the option of pocketing the ball or, up to opponent’s judgment, restoring the ball to its original position (or near its original position frozen to interfering balls).

If a foul shot moves the opponent’s 1 or 15 the opponent has the option of, up to opponent’s judgment, restoring the 1 or the 15 to its original position (or near its original position frozen to interfering balls) or accepting the table as is.

Cue Ball fouls only (no touched object ball fouls).
Click to expand...
Any game that takes that long to explain is never gonna fly.
 
garczar said:
Any game that takes that long to explain is never gonna fly.
Click to expand...
Well, except, it was the standard way to play 8 ball for a lot of people. In 2000, it was still the way they played 8-ball at the local Elks Club. The rules listed above could be tightened up a little, wording wise.
 
Saturated Fats said:
Is it possible to get a copy of old rules from that era?
Click to expand...
I have an old BCA book from that era that's a little ragged or a nicer copy. $8 or $15 including shipping. There are some other interesting games as well and pictures of the stars of the time.
 
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