Middle Finger vs Forefinger

3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Had a hard time with the title of this thread.

Anyway, over the years I've heard about the middle finger as a key.

Coming from very old school where it was taught that the index finger was under the thumb... I always thought that the teaching of the middle finger thing meant that the thumb also moved over to the middle finger.

That grip had some advantages since my wrist couldn't move. Reducing error from the wrist, but the feel was really stiff and so I moved on.

Now I'm finding a loose grip with the middle finger controlling things very interesting.

I've heard lots of grip explanations.

Just wondering about the coaching on middle finger control/feel.

Having fun at the moment with this middle finger control.
Still a very light grip.

Is it a fluke? or Do I take a deep dive and commit to this finger.
 
Could you take a picture of the two grips?
I have trouble picturing what you mean by the index finger under the thumb and moving over to the middle finger
 
3kushn said:
Had a hard time with the title of this thread.

Anyway, over the years I've heard about the middle finger as a key.

Coming from very old school where it was taught that the index finger was under the thumb... I always thought that the teaching of the middle finger thing meant that the thumb also moved over to the middle finger.

That grip had some advantages since my wrist couldn't move. Reducing error from the wrist, but the feel was really stiff and so I moved on.

Now I'm finding a loose grip with the middle finger controlling things very interesting.

I've heard lots of grip explanations.

Just wondering about the coaching on middle finger control/feel.

Having fun at the moment with this middle finger control.
Still a very light grip.

Is it a fluke? or Do I take a deep dive and commit to this finger.
Click to expand...
I am not an instructor. I read in one of @gregcantrall posts about using the ring finger as a trigger. I started doing it and I really like it. Something about letting the ring finger take control gives me better feel and balance on my cue. It promotes a good 90 degree forearm.

Now please don't think of this as correct (it could just be a dumb way to think about it on my part), but my thinking is my ring finger is dumb. It can't do much on it's own, it isn't dexterous like the other fingers. It can't steer your cue or anything. But it does feel when things are set up correctly, it's a great trigger point because it is so dumb and can't really do much on it's own. It's just there to say, yep, this feels right.

I also feel that as it doesn't try to "take control" of things it's much more suited to be an anchor/trigger. The balance is there and provides great cuing action. If you hold your arm at your side with your fingers hanging to the floor, just feel what it feels like to move your wrist focusing on different fingers. To me the ring finger feels like it makes less tension in my wrist. I do not know if this is absolutely anatomically true but I feel that it is. Less tension is always a good thing in pool.
 
boogieman said:
I am not an instructor. I read in one of @gregcantrall posts about using the ring finger as a trigger. I started doing it and I really like it. Something about letting the ring finger take control gives me better feel and balance on my cue. It promotes a good 90 degree forearm.

Now please don't think of this as correct (it could just be a dumb way to think about it on my part), but my thinking is my ring finger is dumb. It can't do much on it's own, it isn't dexterous like the other fingers. It can't steer your cue or anything. But it does feel when things are set up correctly, it's a great trigger point because it is so dumb and can't really do much on it's own. It's just there to say, yep, this feels right.

I also feel that as it doesn't try to "take control" of things it's much more suited to be an anchor/trigger. The balance is there and provides great cuing action. If you hold your arm at your side with your fingers hanging to the floor, just feel what it feels like to move your wrist focusing on different fingers. To me the ring finger feels like it makes less tension in my wrist. I do not know if this is absolutely anatomically true but I feel that it is. Less tension is always a good thing in pool.
Click to expand...
Barry Stark is my source.
His youtube coaching series is worth the time to view them all. A search for grip and Barry Stark brings up a series of 6 videos that address the grip. At a minimum view all 6.
I have noticed a few top snooker players that tap the middle finger on the bridge hand. I tap the ring finger as a reminder of the trigger being the ring finger. Another thought I promote is the sequence of the fingers closure being like milking a cow, well in reverse. Ring middle index.🤷‍♂️
 
FranCrimi said:
Been preaching this for years --- the last 3 fingers ---best grip. Light on the first two.
Click to expand...
I've heard you many times about this but like I said, or tried to say, I thought the thumb also moved back over that finger.

The thumb created my objection to that grip.

Now I understand the thumb isn't involved.

My question is why the middle finger when the index finger is the most educated finger in our lives.

Is it that the middle finger is more in alignment with the center of our wrist? Or??

I should have asked more questions of my mentor. I should have asked him.. Why does your index finger come off the cue and is pointing to the floor before you strike the ball?

Im thinking now, it was his way to ensure his index finger was completely out of the picture.

He had a problem & trained to eliminate it with that move.
 
3kushn said:
I've heard you many times about this but like I said, or tried to say, I thought the thumb also moved back over that finger.

The thumb created my objection to that grip.

Now I understand the thumb isn't involved.

My question is why the middle finger when the index finger is the most educated finger in our lives.

Is it that the middle finger is more in alignment with the center of our wrist? Or??

I should have asked more questions of my mentor. I should have asked him.. Why does your index finger come off the cue and is pointing to the floor before you strike the ball?

Im thinking now, it was his way to ensure his index finger was completely out of the picture.

He had a problem & trained to eliminate it with that move.
Click to expand...
When the last three are the main pressure points of the grip, the thumb and index never come into play. The thumb doesn't cross or grab on to the third finger. With this grip, the thumb and index finger are lightly around the cue, with the thumb maybe barely touching the third finger, but certainly not wrapped around it. In the follow through position, the thumb and index finger are laying parallel alongside the cue. Having the thumb and index finger face downward is more of an exercise to get used to taking the pressure off of those two fingers, but not necessary, once you've mastered the pressure points of that grip.

Now, as to why --- a few reasons. First, the index and the thumb are the twisting fingers. If you're going to twist your cue, it will be with those two. Many players have found a way of avoiding the twist with those two, but it's not exactly a natural hand position and doesn't move naturally with the cue.

Using the last three, keeps the hand in it's most natural position as the cue moves through the stroke. It also facilitates the concept of shooting with your arm rather than with your hand. Unless you're doing something special which you're not most of the time, your grip should do nothing more than hold on to the cue without twisting it, and move naturally with it.

The pinkie is the anchor and the extension of your arm. Taking it off the cue makes your grip hand more flexible. That works if you need to snap your cue, or as the players of the older times --- used to stand tall, and needed wrist movement for speed due to their limited arm swings. It also works well in short shots in 14.1 where you need power but don't have the room for a big stroke. But these days, with players standing low, pinkie off is more of a weapon in your arsenal than part of your regular grip.

Sometimes things get passed down that aren't needed anymore if you question them.
 
Last edited:
FranCrimi said:
When the last three are the main pressure points of the grip, the thumb and index never come into play. The thumb doesn't cross or grab on to the third finger. With this grip, the thumb and index finger are lightly around the cue, with the thumb maybe barely touching the third finger, but certainly not wrapped around it. In the follow through position, the thumb and index finger are laying parallel alongside the cue. Having the thumb and index finger face downward is more of an exercise to get used to taking the pressure off of those two fingers, but not necessary, once you've mastered the pressure points of that grip.

Now, as to why --- a few reasons. First, the index and the thumb are the twisting fingers. If you're going to twist your cue, it will be with those two. Many players have found a way of avoiding the twist with those two, but it's not exactly a natural hand position and doesn't move naturally with the cue.

Using the last three, keeps the hand in it's most natural position as the cue moves through the stroke. It also facilitates the concept of shooting with your arm rather than with your hand. Unless you're doing something special which you're not most of the time, your grip should do nothing more than hold on to the cue without twisting it, and move naturally with it.

The pinkie is the anchor and the extension of your arm. Taking it off the cue makes your grip hand more flexible. That works if you need to snap your cue, or as the players of the older times --- used to stand tall, and needed wrist movement for speed due to their limited arm swings. It also works well in short shots in 14.1 where you need power but don't have the room for a big stroke. But these days, with players standing low, pinkie off is more of a weapon in your arsenal than part of your regular grip.

Sometimes things get passed down that aren't needed anymore if you question them.Thank you
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for your time on this.

Having fun again on several discoveries.

So far this one seems to be a big one.

Can't turn the clock back but enjoy learning new stuff regardless of age.
I have a 6 hour lesson scheduled next week, just because.

The lesson is CB Control. The instructor wants me on a pool table vs my table.
Oh Boy! Maybe I'll learn something about pocketing ball too.
 
boogieman said:
If you hold your arm at your side with your fingers hanging to the floor, just feel what it feels like to move your wrist focusing on different fingers.
Click to expand...
@3kushn did you try this? It's a simple experiment but I hope you humor me on this. If you did try it, which finger felt more natural? Which one had the least tension?
 
boogieman said:
@3kushn did you try this? It's a simple experiment but I hope you humor me on this. If you did try it, which finger felt more natural? Which one had the least tension?
Click to expand...
I think we would have to have a face to face conversation for me to get what you're saying.

What's is a "trigger finger"?
 
3kushn said:
I think we would have to have a face to face conversation for me to get what you're saying.

What's is a "trigger finger"?
Click to expand...
I agree with the face to face thing, it's difficult to convey over text.

Basically do this with no cue or anything. Stand up straight, feet about shoulder width apart, or whatever is comfortable. Hold your hand down at your sides, palm inward. Now spread your fingers apart and make a motion like you would while cuing (with your grip/butt hand). That's step 1. Now focus on each finger, starting with the index finger. Take the motion of a pool stroke, again, imagining the weight of a cue in your hand, think balance point or slightly behind. Pay attention to any tension, pay attention to how your hand naturally feels... is it twisting, feeling unnatural to move your wrist back and forth as while shooting? This is your "lead/trigger" finger. Now repeat the process with each finger, starting at the second, then third(ring), then pinky.

One should feel better with less tension and it lets your wrist move more naturally. It's different for everybody, one size doesn't fit all.

Later, when you get a cue in your hand, repeat the experiment. If you need/want a homework assignment, report back and let us know what you feel on each finger. You should find similar results without or with a cue. Not always, but your "trigger" should be within 1 finger with or without a cue.

I have no idea if you've ever milked anything, but the third finger is the one that gets the milk going a bit faster. I'm not a human biologist but I'd wager the ring finger has the most direct route up your arm. 💪

EDIT: Trigger finger is kind of a part of the PSR. When it feels locked in, it's locked in. You use it to "trigger" your brain into believing you are correctly aligned and approached the shot correctly. It feels right. It's kind of part of the mental checklist we go through to convince ourselves a shot looks right.
 
boogieman said:
I agree with the face to face thing, it's difficult to convey over text.

Basically do this with no cue or anything. Stand up straight, feet about shoulder width apart, or whatever is comfortable. Hold your hand down at your sides, palm inward. Now spread your fingers apart and make a motion like you would while cuing (with your grip/butt hand). That's step 1. Now focus on each finger, starting with the index finger. Take the motion of a pool stroke, again, imagining the weight of a cue in your hand, think balance point or slightly behind. Pay attention to any tension, pay attention to how your hand naturally feels... is it twisting, feeling unnatural to move your wrist back and forth as while shooting? This is your "lead/trigger" finger. Now repeat the process with each finger, starting at the second, then third(ring), then pinky.

One should feel better with less tension and it lets your wrist move more naturally. It's different for everybody, one size doesn't fit all.

Later, when you get a cue in your hand, repeat the experiment. If you need/want a homework assignment, report back and let us know what you feel on each finger. You should find similar results without or with a cue. Not always, but your "trigger" should be within 1 finger with or without a cue.

I have no idea if you've ever milked anything, but the third finger is the one that gets the milk going a bit faster. I'm not a human biologist but I'd wager the ring finger has the most direct route up your arm. 💪

EDIT: Trigger finger is kind of a part of the PSR. When it feels locked in, it's locked in. You use it to "trigger" your brain into believing you are correctly aligned and approached the shot correctly. It feels right. It's kind of part of the mental checklist we go through to convince ourselves a shot looks right.
Click to expand...
My screen says posted at 2:27AM
Do you ever sleep ? 😂
 
3kushn said:
My question is why the middle finger when the index finger is the most educated finger in our lives.

Is it that the middle finger is more in alignment with the center of our wrist? Or??

I should have asked more questions of my mentor. I should have asked him.. Why does your index finger come off the cue and is pointing to the floor before you strike the ball?

Im thinking now, it was his way to ensure his index finger was completely out of the picture.

He had a problem & trained to eliminate it with that move.
Click to expand...
I play off the middle finger too and also sometimes finish with the index and thumb apart at the end. So does Efren for that matter. To Fran's point, if I force my index and thumb to stay on the cue no matter what, my wrist will tend to twist. Using the middle finger as a trigger finger and main anchor point for the cue in my grip hand allows me to have a very loose grip with good stability throughout the stroke while also allowing for snap that stays in line.

I know you had some confusion around the term 'trigger finger' but as Barry Stark explains in the vid GC posted, it is the finger that 'loads' in the back swing and then acts as the trigger for the stroke. My hand doesn't really open and close like a snooker player's so the middle finger isn't a 'trigger finger' in the strict sense I guess, but it does become the point of control in my grip.

Efren and some other front two finger Pinoys have something similar, where the index is on at address and into the backswing, but as the cue moves back pressure in the hand and control of the cue shifts back to the middle finger (or other back fingers if they are on the cue ala Barry's ring finger trigger). From that point on, that finger is in control and the cue rides in on that. Since that is the critical contact point in the grip hand once loaded, the index and thumb can come off without detriment to the stroke. Efren's index and thumb fly off the cue often but it can be seen at a much more subtle level in many snooker players as well, including Ronnie, whose index can be seen hanging lower (with obv less pressure if any on it) at stroke completion than his middle finger. Now I can't be sure if he uses his middle finger or ring as his trigger finger, but just from visual evidence I can tell you he ain't using his index beyond his backswing.
 
I had a house pro once show me or tell me to hold a piece of chalk between my thumb and index finger on my grip hand
He used it as a way to get me to not grip so tightly, but it ended up having me use my middle and ring finger more as the focal point of my grip
I found it helpful
I am not an instructor
 
bbb said:
I had a house pro once show me or tell me to hold a piece of chalk between my thumb and index finger on my grip hand
He used it as a way to get me to not grip so tightly, but it ended up having me use my middle and ring finger more as the focal point of my grip
I found it helpful
I am not an instructor
Click to expand...
I saw that chalk advice in a book once or twice. If it works for you, great. Lotta players even play with a gap in their grip as if the chalk is still between their hand and cue as suggested by Tor and Wilson. Other instructors call that 'slop;' and consider it bad. Different strokes for different folks, and some work way better with certain types of grips than others. Only snooker has widely agreed upon grip advice for the piston stroke, and even that draws scoffs from pool instructors teaching a different stroking method.

In short, find something that works for you and stick with that, some reputable instructor out there will probably agree with you, even if others don't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbb
Not an instructor but I've only found my "accurate and repeatable stroke" happens with the cue on my middle and ring fingers. Thumb, index and pinky just hang down there. YMMV.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbb
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top