What do you think would happen if there were no handicaps, in any leagues or tournaments, and all tournaments were Open to all skill levels?

[DeeDeeCues]

If a weak player gets better by losing to stronger players playing heads up why not just watch matches online? Pretty much the same thing if you are sitting in your chair watching some guy pummel you. I'm not talking about players that are 50 Fargo points apart, I mean like 150 Fargo points apart. Who doesn't play even up when the spread is 50-75 points? I would have no problem entering weekly capped but unhandicapped tournaments where players were a max of 150 Fargo points better, beyond that its pretty much ridiculous. As far as going hill/hill with a stronger player because of a handicap I think it helps put the weaker player in a position that he normally wouldn't see so it can help improve his game, they will get experience player under real pressure, not just league game type pressure.

How do handicaps help with sitting in the chair when playing a better player?

It's isn't that hard. Handicaps give lower players a chance to get a trophy and say, 'i won't by making fewer balls and winning fewer games. Yippee. I guess most people need that bs. I don't and will never understand the people who need to cut others down to build themselves up.

Here's the flip side of handicaps. Let's say that you are playing Shane van filler-gorst Reyes. Svfgr is giving you 6 games in a race to 10. You 'win' with a score of 6-6 and are playing your best pool ever. Well, the match is over. You were on a course to possibly actually beat the bestest player ever, but you'll never know because your desire for a handicap robbed you of that opportunity.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

It would probably almost kill pool at this point to drop all handicaps. The only tournaments I have seen that kept a good size crowd week after week for years without handicaps were single game match 8 Ball tournaments. It made people feel good to beat the top players which happened pretty often. They did not win because the handicap gave them an advantage. It may have been pure luck, but they beat the better player fair and square. They would still be bragging about it the next week. They also played it on just a couple of 9 foot tables and people watched and cheered and so on. Single game match round robin type of league play might make it. But handicaps are so entrenched now I do not think we can turn the format back.

I'm the recent past I've seen non-handicapped tourneys last for years supported by player who have no chance of ever winning the tourney.

 

[SBC]

There is a third group. Those who quit.

You don’t want to drive people from the game. Neither do you want to gear everything to those who would have quit. Ideally there is a range of events. If the players who can’t win are playing leagues and small tournaments it is good for the game overall. And some will enter some of the bigger local events. No need to run them off.

Pool was never as strong as before everything was handicapped and league.

 

[SBC]

Just a question so don't hate the messenger: If that format was so great what happened? How much pool now is poolroom based vs. clubs/bars? I liked that era myself but it was destined to die off. The COM movie caused a huge uptick in pool just like the 'Hustler' did but both were doomed in the long run. Just my take nothin else.

What some people take as a substitute for pool....they can keep.

People like easy....playing for nothing on league night.

I'd rather go to the library.

 

[Hungarian]

My two cents. If your a 9 and you’re playing a bunch of 4’s and 5’s it can get boring.

If pool was exponentially more popular, divisions could be established that would match teams of similar skill levels. I think this would be interesting.

But as it is now 9’s are going to be playing against 3’s for eternity until pool completely dies.

Sorry, I’m in a dark mood today.

 

[dquarasr]

This last session I played a TAP 8, FR650. At the time I was a 6, with a fairly outdated FR430 (I think I am playing around 480 or so now.) so 6-8 race.

It sucked getting beaten 1-8 with my only rack win coming when 650 scratched on the 8.

I learned little except how much I knew I was totally outclassed. If I missed, when I actually had the opportunity to get to the table, it was a loss; he ran out. Don’t miss, you say. All well and good but playing to my average or even at my best, I am destined to miss at least once every couple of racks, usually at least once per rack. And that miss against a 650 playing to his average skill results in a loss.

Two weeks ago I played as a TAP 6, against a TAP 7, 5-3 race. My opponent missed exactly one offensive shot the entire match. He was successful at every safe he played. I ducked often, but not all my safes were successful.

I lost rackless, 0-5. It wasn’t fun. Again I don’t know what I learned except “don’t miss.”

I played almost exactly to my skill level average.

Playing either of these opponents straight up would be pointless.

 

[George the Greek]

Alot of the tournaments here in Nova Scotia are money handicapped by FR. They get alot of players and with the staggered entries they get decent turnouts. They also have cue raffles, 50-50 draws, 10 - ball break contest, prize money for 3 of the highest finishers in two ranges of low FR players. The 10-ball break and run is $500/ ball.

 

[easy-e]

How would you like to:
a) play against Jack Niklaus in his prime ?
b) drive against Michael Schumacher in his prime ?
c) Basket ball against Pistol Pete in his prime ?
d) Baseball against Pete Rose in his prime ?

Yeah, I though so.

Are you serious? I'd love that!

 

[heater451]

It would probably almost kill pool at this point to drop all handicaps. The only tournaments I have seen that kept a good size crowd week after week for years without handicaps were single game match 8 Ball tournaments. It made people feel good to beat the top players which happened pretty often. They did not win because the handicap gave them an advantage. It may have been pure luck, but they beat the better player fair and square. They would still be bragging about it the next week. They also played it on just a couple of 9 foot tables and people watched and cheered and so on. Single game match round robin type of league play might make it. But handicaps are so entrenched now I do not think we can turn the format back.

In a one-and-out format, there's still likely luck involved, when a lesser skilled player beats a higher skilled player. Still, it's definitely an ego boost for players when they win 1 game, even though they would probably lose a longer race most of the time.

As for the leagues, I agree that it would be detrimental to dropping handicapping. However, no one seems to look at it with the consideration that most players probably start socially, and are used to playing similarly skilled players. This generally transitions into leagues, where (my experience has been) matches are set up with same SL's, but the handicapping is there for its purpose, to even out the match for otherwise mis-matched players. The point is, the use of the handicapping is only relevant, when an even match is unavailable--or, a team is playing a sacrifice strategy.

 

[sudocrushms]

Pool would take a HUGE hit, at least in the US, if this happened. The vast majority of league/tournament play is handicapped in some fashion.

As much as i hate handicaps for myself (if i'm gonna get the brakes beat off me by a better player, so be it), i agree. Handicaps keep the game fun for people that wouldn't be competitive straight-up. Now HOW you handicap is a bar-brawl subject, but that's the nature of it.
I do think it's a lot better here than it is in the bowling world where bagging is common and the handicaps are absolutely out of control.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Are you serious? I'd love that!

Forgot to add that both parties put up $100,000 of their own money--winner takes all.

 

[pt109]

Very off topic, but do you recall exactly where The Rack was located? The address maybe? As dumb as it might sound, it always interests me to see where pool halls were located. Famous pool halls like that. To maybe stand in the same spot where some famous hustlers once stood, lol. I know, silly.

Can’t remember the proper name of the street….we called it 8 and a half mile road running east off Coolidge….Steve Lomako would know.
It used to be the Rack and Cue….originally we only went there on Sunday….our crowd were regulars at the Miscue, Mike Ravinos room in Easr Detroit….Mike would close on Sunday…devout Catholic.

 

[boogieman]

How would you like to:
a) play against Jack Niklaus in his prime ?
b) drive against Michael Schumacher in his prime ?
c) Basket ball against Pistol Pete in his prime ?
d) Baseball against Pete Rose in his prime ?

Yeah, I though so.

I'd probably play them 9B even up, at least until they got onto it.

 

[garczar]

Can’t remember the proper name of the street….we called it 8 and a half mile road running east off Coolidge….Steve Lomako would know.
It used to be the Rack and Cue….originally we only went there on Sunday….our crowd were regulars at the Miscue, Mike Ravinos room in Easr Detroit….Mike would close on Sunday…devout Catholic.

poolplaya9 listed the address of The Rack. Building has been gone a few yrs now.

 

[boogieman]

The problem is that 'winning' due to a handicap is still losing, you are just getting rewarded for losing.

I think it should be a little like weight classes in boxing. A featherweight will most likely get mauled against a heavyweight. In an ideal world you would match up with people in your weight class or those somewhat above or below. In an open event you could fight anyone. But just like pool, in an open event the featherweights are smart enough not to try to go toe to toe with Mike Tyson. No chance to win, why take the medical bills with no chance of payout.

As you get better you would move up a "class." The trouble is, there's not enough players in most places and they struggle to even organize a simple tournament. There's not really a "fair" way to do it without handicapping, but I bet Tyson could still KO either of us with one hand tied behind his back while hopping on one foot.

 

[garczar]

I think it should be a little like weight classes in boxing. A featherweight will most likely get mauled against a heavyweight. In an ideal world you would match up with people in your weight class or those somewhat above or below. In an open event you could fight anyone. But just like pool, in an open event the featherweights are smart enough not to try to go toe to toe with Mike Tyson. No chance to win, why take the medical bills with no chance of payout.

As you get better you would move up a "class." The trouble is, there's not enough players in most places and they struggle to even organize a simple tournament. There's not really a "fair" way to do it without handicapping, but I bet Tyson could still KO either of us with one hand tied behind his back while hopping on one foot.

Agree. Good luck trying to run a local/regional level tournament these days without h'capping of some kind. Most players are not die-hard pool addicts that want to be top level players. They are recreational players that aren't going to repeatedly pay to get run over.

 

[boogieman]

Agree. Good luck trying to run a local/regional level tournament these days without h'capping of some kind. Most players are not die-hard pool addicts that want to be top level players. They are recreational players that aren't going to repeatedly pay to get run over.

Yep.

One other option, if you are a know FR or "level" you pay different entry fees based on probability of winning. Calcuttas are kind of like this anyway. The stronger player goes for more.

Like for example and to make it easy a 300 FR pays $1, a 400 FR should beat a 300 2:1. So a 400 pays $2, a 500 pays $4, a 600 pays $8, a 700 pays $16, an 800 pays $32. The 800s are still are likely to win, but they have more skin in the game without clubbing the baby seals. IDK, just a thought. That's not really a handicap but it spreads the misery and might make it a little more palatable to be known dead money in an event.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Yep.

One other option, if you are a know FR or "level" you pay different entry fees based on probability of winning. Calcuttas are kind of like this anyway. The stronger player goes for more.

Like for example and to make it easy a 300 FR pays $1, a 400 FR should beat a 300 2:1. So a 400 pays $2, a 500 pays $4, a 600 pays $8, a 700 pays $16, an 800 pays $32. The 800s are still are likely to win, but they have more skin in the game without clubbing the baby seals. IDK, just a thought. That's not really a handicap but it spreads the misery and might make it a little more palatable to be known dead money in an event.

Makes more sense to me. I'll get flack for it, but I think limited Scotch doubles is a great format for mixing skill levels the handicap is built in without really being a manufactured handicap.

The benefits include: each player takes the same number of shots within a few; the bad players learn directly from the good; the good players might play better than normal to help the worse player, so they learn, also.

 

[garczar]

Makes more sense to me. I'll get flack for it, but I think limited Scotch doubles is a great format for mixing skill levels the handicap is built in without really being a manufactured handicap.

The benefits include: each player takes the same number of shots within a few; the bad players learn directly from the good; the good players might play better than normal to help the worse player, so they learn, also.

They've had a lot of 1200 combined Fargo Scotch events in my general area. They get good turnouts and pay decent too. You could easily do one with a 1000fr limit for more beginner level players.

 

[pt109]

Alot of the tournaments here in Nova Scotia are money handicapped by FR. They get alot of players and with the staggered entries they get decent turnouts. They also have cue raffles, 50-50 draws, 10 - ball break contest, prize money for 3 of the highest finishers in two ranges of low FR players. The 10-ball break and run is $500/ ball.

This might just be the best idea…..Dale Sweet had a Sunday tournament at the Silver Cue somewhat like that…from 2$ to 25$ entry.
Always stayed in thee fifty entries range….your extra activity sounds even better.