APA 9 Ball Races

[cueball2010]

I have always wondered why the APA uses ball count instead of 9 ball pocketed liked the rest of world. But I actually kind of like APA counting of balls to determine skill.

I guess I am looking for some opinions here. Is the better player the one who can sink the most balls or the one who can pocket the 9?

 

[garczar]

Over any length of time ball-count will show who's the better. That's fairly obvious, to me anyway.

 

[skor]

I think that it’s the best handicap system for 9ball

 

[MitchAlsup]

I think that it’s the best handicap system for 9ball

I would give it the lesser bad of 9-ball handicapping.

 

[skor]

I would give it the lesser bad of 9-ball handicapping.

The idea of point per ball is the only way to go.
I don't know how well the APA implement it but it's better than giving games or match balls.

 

[MitchAlsup]

The idea of point per ball is the only way to go.
I don't know how well the APA implement it but it's better than giving games or match balls.

Back in the 1960s we played $1 on 5 and 7 $2 on 9
you could win or loose and still break even.

 

[Rickhem]

I think the ball count gives the lower skill level player a better chance than counting racks like in 8 ball. Especially when the lower skill level player is not intimidated by their opponent.

The premise in APA 9 ball, is that an entire rack is worth 10 points, a point for each ball and two points for the 9. If you make an early 9, you get those two points, and the next break, but it's often better to run balls for the extra points if the shots are there. Balls made on a scratch or a foul are "dead balls", and are not counted for either player.

For handicap, here are the balls needed for each skill level:
A 1 needs 14
A 2 needs 19
A 3 needs 25
A 4 needs 31
A 5 needs 38
A 6 needs 46
A 7 needs 55
A 8 needs 65
A 9 needs 75

Now just like in 8 ball, there are those that reach the higher levels that are worlds apart from those that have been there for years. And for some weekly league matches, playing a 3 against a 7 or an 8 is often a good team strategy. My GF is a 3, and I'm an 8, and in our basement practice matches, she beats me way more than I beat her. She needs to average 3 balls per rack, and she'll hit four and five ball runs more than I'll hold her to none or one. I find that playing good defensive or safety shots is something that is an absolute necessity. Lots of lower skill level players tend towards just bashing balls at break speed when there isn't a clear shot, and much as I don't like that, it often works. Those lower skill level players frequently have close matches when playing higher skill level players.

 

[Justaneng]

USAPL also uses a form ball count for 8/9/10 ball. Rack winner gets 14 and rack loser gets 1 point per ball pocketed (9/10 ball) and 1 point for every ball of theirs not on the table (8 ball).

Agree that APA method works fine for APA. In the lower skill levels there are only a few racks played in a match so the ball count is more indicative of "performance."

 

[Bavafongoul]

In APA, points awarded for making the 9 points is 2 versus only 1 point for any object ball.
It really should be a higher point value than just double a single object ball’s point value.

Why? Because in real life pool and the official rules of pool, you only have to pocket the 9 ball
to win the game. You can have a race to 7 match & only have to pocket 7 balls to win the match.

As long as all seven balls are the 9 ball and your opponent can pocket the other 56 balls but you
still win 7-0. Since 9 ball is about pocketing the 9 ball to win, the 9 should be worth more than 2 pts.

I think it should be increased to a 3 points value…….that means you opponent can win 8 points by
running the table to the 9 and misses the shot you pocket to win the game & get 3 points, not 2 pts.

It places more emphasis on how the game of 9 ball is actually played. Sink the 9 ball anytime in any
pocket and you win and on 7’ tables it is ridiculously easy to take place. Make the 9 called pocket only.

9 ball is already a game of slop and and so is the way 8 ball gets played in APA. Slop a solid or striped
ball In any pocket not called and it counts. APA doesn’t require calling your pocket except for the 8 ball.

Any pool league should at least abide by the established rules of pool or try to come close but inadvertent,
pure luck slopping a ball around the table & accidentally pocketing a OB in 8 ball for credit is bending the rules.

Get on your ass on any table and call every shot and now you are playing pool. Just hit the OB as hard as
you can and hope it drops isn’t. That is the short fall of 7’ tables and social pool leagues. I prefer cutthroat.

Big tables, tight pockets, fast cloth and I am in nirvana when it comes to pool playing. The rules that APA
uses, especially with length of time players are afforded to take a shot, is just outright ludicrous and comical.

Tighten the rules, implement a shot clock, change the points value like for 9 ball, a team handicap limit should
be increased to 25 instead of 23 for 9 ball since player ratings can be as high as 9 versus 8 ball’s 7 points max.

I guess I am more competitive minded and I hate losing to another player slopping object balls in an undesignated
pocket and counting. I believe pool is a game of strict rules to be followed and any lucky shots should be minimized.

 

[hang-the-9]

USAPL also uses a form ball count for 8/9/10 ball. Rack winner gets 14 and rack loser gets 1 point per ball pocketed (9/10 ball) and 1 point for every ball of theirs not on the table (8 ball).

Agree that APA method works fine for APA. In the lower skill levels there are only a few racks played in a match so the ball count is more indicative of "performance."

I like the USAPL handicap system much better, you need to win the game to get the majority of the points. In the APA you can play 9 ball without much focus at the endgame and still win the match, even if you technically loose every game. Not good training for the "real world" of pool.

 

[Rickhem]

I'll just add here that the APA is a business, and when you look at their rules like team handicap limits and such, the business aspect of that, and how it helps grow the leagues, those rules make much more sense. At least it does for me.

 

[Logandgriff]

With the ball count method, low skill players can compete = more players = more money for APA. I like ball count. If you run eight and jar the 9, you're still good.

 

[APA Operator]

low skill players can compete = more players = more money for APA

The middle part of that equation is important for everyone - APA, CSI, all the way up the ladder to the pros. It's important to equipment manufacturers, host locations, tournament organizers, even matchup gamblers and backers, and others like FargoRate. It's also important to longer-term goals like sponsorship. Without the "more people", everyone suffers. Intolerance for those "more people" also harms the growth of the sport. Ignore them if you wish, but actively showing disdain can drive them away. <--- Not directed at anyone in particular, just my perspective.

 

[oscargrouch]

In APA, points awarded for making the 9 points is 2 versus only 1 point for any object ball.
It really should be a higher point value than just double a single object ball’s point value.

Why? Because in real life pool and the official rules of pool, you only have to pocket the 9 ball
to win the game. You can have a race to 7 match & only have to pocket 7 balls to win the match.

As long as all seven balls are the 9 ball and your opponent can pocket the other 63 balls but you
still win 7-0. Since 9 ball is about pocketing the 9 ball to win, the 9 should be worth more than 2 pts.

I think it should be increased to a 3 points value…….that means you opponent can win 8 points by
running the table to the 9 and misses the shot you pocket to win the game & get 3 points, not 2 pts.

It places more emphasis on how the game of 9 ball is actually played. Sink the 9 ball anytime in any
pocket and you win and on 7’ tables it is ridiculously easy to take place. Make the 9 called pocket only.

9 ball is already a game of slop and and so is the way 8 ball gets played in APA. Slop a solid or striped
ball In any pocket not called and it counts. APA doesn’t require calling your pocket except for the 8 ball.

Any pool league should at least abide by the established rules of pool or try to come close but inadvertent,
pure luck slopping a ball around the table & accidentally pocketing a OB in 8 ball for credit is bending the rules.

Get on your ass on any table and call every shot and now you are playing pool. Just hit the OB as hard as
you can and hope it drops isn’t. That is the short fall of 7’ tables and social pool leagues. I prefer cutthroat.

Big tables, tight pockets, fast cloth and I am in nirvana when it comes to pool playing. The rules that APA
uses, especially with length of time players are afforded to take a shot, is just outright ludicrous and comical.

Tighten the rules, implement a shot clock, change the points value like for 9 ball, a team handicap limit should
be increased to 25 instead of 23 for 9 ball since player ratings can be as high as 9 versus 8 ball’s 7 points max.

I guess I am more competitive minded and I hate losing to another player slopping object balls in an undesignated
pocket and counting. I believe pool is a game of strict rules to be followed and any lucky shots should be minimized.

Think you're looking at it as 9 Ball instead of more like straight pool. When you think about it, that's really what they're going for while keeping it as the "exciting" (oooh!) game of 9 ball. Who can just make more balls or make their handicapped number first, as opposed to a game like 8 ball where there's chance for weird stuff to happen like early 8s or scratches on the 8, while still keeping some luck/excitement of the break and getting more for the 9 when it's left for the weaker player. It's really like the 9 shouldn't count more than any other ball, but then it's ridiculous to call it 9 ball and you might as well play straight.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Actually what I am saying is there is a obvious imbalance if you can literally win every game and wind up losing the match. Now for fairness, the number of balls sunken is obviously important. But making the 9 is what the game has always been about. Sink the 9 and you win. Do this 6-7 games in a row and still lose the match in APA seems screwy.

I know the number of balls sunken counts but at least give more weight to the points value of the 9 ball. The underlying premise of the game is sink the 9 ball……on the break, your last shot or your only shot but sink the 9 ball and win.

APA should increase the significance of sinking the 9 by assigning the 9 ball a higher value than a object ball and only doubling it from 1 point to 2 points doesn’t recognize the importance of making the 9 ball which is the basis of 9 ball.

It’s not straight pool, which is the toughest game to play, but it sure isn’t 9 ball either. Pool was never intended to be easy
and the way social pool leagues like APA do it really becomes way too easy when played on little tables….not my cup of tea,

 

[APA Operator]

APA should increase the significance of sinking the 9 by assigning the 9 ball a higher value than a object ball and only doubling it from 1 point to 2 points doesn’t recognize the importance of making the 9 ball which is the basis of 9 ball.

But it does make the totals easier to double-check on paper scoresheets. I know, big whoop, but it's a consideration in making the night enjoyable. Imagine if each rack was worth, say, 13 points. Seven racks in and you discover that the scoresheets are off by one. It's much easier to find the error counting by ten rather than 13. The scorekeeper app does that work for you now, so maybe more than two is more doable now. Thinking of it as two points is a little bit misleading too, because it's really two points plus whatever you make on the break. Keep in mind as well, the more you emphasize making the 9 the more variance you will see in skill levels. Games like 9-Ball and 10-Ball are harder to handicap by rack because the amount of work each player must do to win the rack varies. Games like 8-Ball are easier because, absent the occasional fluke, each player must do the same amount of work to win the rack. But that's a double-edged sword, because scoring and handicapping based on racks gives the better player an advantage that can't be fully erased by proper races, which would be too long in cases to fit into a normal league night. So while the handicaps do make the matches closer, they don't and can't make them even. "Anyone Can Win" is true, but 50-50 races is a pipe dream. The 9-Ball system comes closer to that.

 

[Bavafongoul]

There a 23 point team handicap limit for 5 players.you can be rated as high as a 7 playing eight ball but can be rated as high as 9 in nine ball. It means you have to have low ranked players on your team for a 9 ball roster. Chances are if you are rated a 6 or 7 in 8 ball, you’d be rated even higher in 9 ball. So you can’t have a APA team unless it contains mediocre skilled players. I know there’s a Masters thing but that division doesn’t use any more strict rules than any APA team so all the 8 ball and 9 ball slop shots still counts in the Masters Division & the matches are on 7’ tables.

I spoke with our local APA Operator who happens to be a friend of mine. I asked about playing on 9’ tables and using
more conventional rules that eliminate slop, like 10 ball rules that are emulate 14.1. He was just candid and said the
harder the pool game is, the smaller his membership becomes. He said if mulligans were allowed, his membership
would increase. It is all about playing competitively but having fun at the same time so 7’ tables and very easy rules
are what draws most members to play APA. So that’s why I brought up the 23 point team handicap that mandated you
have to build a team roster that can’t have a couple of high ranked 9 ball players on the team but for 8 ball you can since handicaps cannot exceed a max of 7 whereas in 9 ball the same player can be ranked as high as 9.

It really forces any team to carry low ranked players on the roster and watching those matches waiting to play can be agonizingly long. Thankfully, the races are short but even a race to 2 can take longer than a race between two high ranked players racing to 6. If I had my druthers, APA would have a higher team limit, stricter rules about no slop in 8 ball and a shot clock requirement. Heck, why not just add or substitute 10 ball but don’t mess with the 10 ball rules? Or better yet, start a new APA division that uses the official rules of pool and a team roster handicap limit of 29 or 30?

I know it would likely be the smallest APA division but it would be for the best skilled players and you had to be rated a 6 or higher. I think it would be a division that a lot of players in APA would aspire to compete in by striving to improve their pool skills and handicap so they could qualify for this new division. But apparently I’m just minority voice howling alone.

 

[dquarasr]

The underlying premise of the game is sink the 9 ball……on the break, your last shot or your only shot but sink the 9 ball and win.

@oscargrouch said it above: you're getting hung up on the fact that APA 9-ball is called "9-ball". In APA 9-ball, you don't "win" racks by sinking the 9. It only affords you 2 points and the break on the next rack. Stop thinking of APA 9-ball as your preconceived notion of what 9-ball is all about. It's a totally different game than traditional 9-ball.

 

[ctyhntr]

I have always wondered why the APA uses ball count instead of 9 ball pocketed liked the rest of world. But I actually kind of like APA counting of balls to determine skill.

I guess I am looking for some opinions here. Is the better player the one who can sink the most balls or the one who can pocket the 9?

Very good question as 9-ball has a large luck factor which is eliminated in the APA format. As others pointed out, going for the 9 only gets you 2 points, not a game. APA 9-Ball scoring would be better suited for 10-ball or straight pool. It doesn't capture the spirit of 9-ball.

When I was a teenager, I got all excited when Atari announced their version of Pac-Man. Here is a comparison of their version, vs the others. I feel the same with APA 9-ball.

 

[Bavafongoul]

@oscargrouch said it above: you're getting hung up on the fact that APA 9-ball is called "9-ball". In APA 9-ball, you don't "win" racks by sinking the 9. It only affords you 2 points and the break on the next rack. Stop thinking of APA 9-ball as your preconceived notion of what 9-ball is all about. It's a totally different game than traditional 9-ball.

I am simply expressing my opinion the game becomes so much easier with these type of rules.
How can you refer to it as 8 ball if the the only difference with 9 ball is marking the 8 ball’s pocket.

Under the APA’s rules, playing 8 ball without designating the OB’s pocket is how I taught my kids to
first learn how to play pool when they were 7- 8 yrs old. It was all about just making them feel good.

I would have thought that over the length of time APA has existed, there would have evolved a more
elite division that abided by the established rules of pool and with a team handicap of 30 and a max
player handicap of 7. It would allow you to assemble stronger players that could even field a team of
5 players all with a handicap of 6, or a few 7’s handicaps coupled with 5’s, etc. I think the competition
could be awesome and some great pool playing would ensue but not with the current APA structure.

The end of the story is APA can do anything it wants because it is successful, or so I imagine since the
current franchisee in Fresno is making a tidy sum. And when you are successful, why tinker with the
recipe and just leave things as is. It’s the easiest thing to do versus stepping out of the box that might
not be successful or maybe it could lead to television broadcasts of APA Nationals for this elite division.

It’s more of a pipe dream of mine than anything else because change is hard for people and organizations
to undertake when the status quo seems satisfactory. Maybe a new pool association will come along?