Rules Question - Why

GideonF

GideonF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So this just came up on my Facebook feed.

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I know the ruling is that the ball that doesn’t stay down isn’t considered pocketed. My question is why? I mean if the pocket was full and he shot it anyway then I guess I can see that the shooter should lose his turn.

But where, as here, the ball comes back up as result of bad table design, the rule seems unfair to David. Why is this the rule?
 
GideonF said:
So this just came up on my Facebook feed.

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I know the ruling is that the ball that doesn’t stay down isn’t considered pocketed. My question is why? I mean if the pocket was full and he shot it anyway then I guess I can see that the shooter should lose his turn.

But where, as here, the ball comes back up as result of bad table design, the rule seems unfair to David. Why is this the rule?
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I don't do flopbook, so I can't comment on that particular shot, but what do you suggest as options?

1. Do you allow the player to keep playing with the ball that popped out still on the table?

2. Do you put the ball in the pocket and then allow him to keep shooting?

The problem option 1 is that the ball might land in a position that makes the run easier than the player left himself, which obviously bring up valid arguments from the opponents.

The problem with 2 (and 1) is that what if the ball pops up and hits other balls? Do you play those balls from where they come to rest, or do you replace all the balls? What if the ball pops out and hits a rolling ball? There is no way of knowing where the rolling ball would have stopped. Basically, there are too many possibilities for the game to be changed by interference to allow this to be a rule.

Finally, if a ball that comes back out of the pocket isn't considered pocketed, than a cueball that leaves the playing surface would have to be considered a scratch. Instead of following the rule that the shot isn't over until all balls have stopped moving, a rule change here would be a precedent for a single event to overrule the outcome of the shot.

It isn't a 'bad table design', it can happen on any table, I've seen it on every type of table I've played on. Happened to an opponent two weeks ago on a valley. Happened to a friend on my GC1 a couple of months ago.

I don't know much about Mr. Alcaide, but anyone who gets above a 500fr and bitches about this loses respect in my book. He's the one who shot the ball hard enough for it to happen.
 
The rule has always been, so far as I know, that a ball that doesn't stay in the pocket (or enter the ball return) is not pocketed. Some balls hit the back of the pocket and come out. Where does the ref draw the line between you hit it too hard and the pocket behaved badly? Players have to accept that the equipment is bad -- there is no pocket spec for ball acceptance.

One pocket players have even been known to do that on purpose. There is a standard fancy shot -- Alex P. shot it in a recent video -- in which a sure scratch into the side is avoided by hopping the cue ball to the top of the liner and back onto the table.

DeeDeeCues said:
... I don't know much about Mr. Alcaide, but anyone who gets above a 500fr and bitches about this loses respect in my book. He's the one who shot the ball hard enough for it to happen.
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The Rasson table was designed badly. The pocket had one or two balls in it. The liner was likely too solid and did not dissipate the energy. Alcaide hit close to dead center and the ball hit a pocketed ball and sprung back out. I have never seen a Diamond table do that.

Gold Crowns with drop pockets are known for the same problem. I've told the story before about Tony Annigoni making sure that there was exactly two balls in a corner pocket if he had to shoot hard. I thought he was crazy until I figured out why. That gives the lowest chance of the ball coming back out for a perfect but hard shot.

The worst I've seen was an off-brand ball-return table in a 1970s tournament. It had rubber-covered wire ball return tracks like Gold Crowns, but the pocket liner was not a proper funnel. A ball could hit the back of the pocket, go straight down and hit the wire track and get sprung straight back up. More than one 14.1 break shot surprised shooters in that tournament. I don't recall the players getting any relief from the problem.

No, I take it back. The worst is a local room (Daly City) where one table has pocket liners that seem to be made from superball material. Any shot with over two-length speed and rolling is going to come back out. The ball never gets near the bottom of the pocket. Anyone have a jar of Vaseline?
 
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There should be a possibility of the shot being allowed. Ball went through the jaws into the cup and then found its way out. There were only two balls already in the pocket.

Legally struck well within equipment tolerance standards; freak defect. Shot allowed.
 
Here is an even crazier example, where the ball goes into the pocket and comes out a different pocket.


Reading the WPA rules it says that a ball is pocketed “when it enters the ball return system” which to me means the 2b is pocketed. But that seems very odd in this case - because the 2 is back on the table and the other balls have been disturbed.

According to the comments, it was treated the same as a ball popping back out - not pocketed and loss of turn.
 
Good catch. I've never minded reaping on those and always relinquish if it's the other way - give or take some profanity. It's still a stupid one size fits all argument killer.
 
GideonF said:
Here is an even crazier example, where the ball goes into the pocket and comes out a different pocket.


Reading the WPA rules it says that a ball is pocketed “when it enters the ball return system” which to me means the 2b is pocketed. But that seems very odd in this case - because the 2 is back on the table and the other balls have been disturbed.

According to the comments, it was treated the same as a ball popping back out - not pocketed and loss of turn.
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I've seen this a handful of times but never on video! Have had it happen to me personally twice oddly enough it actually benefitted me as I would've hooked myself both times but instead it became a safety my opponent had to deal with, Lucky lucky.
 
I have been playing pool for about 60 years, and this the first time ever seeing this happen. I had never seen a ball go in one pocket, and come out another pocket.
 
Thomas Martin said:
I have been playing pool for about 60 years, and this the first time ever seeing this happen. I had never seen a ball go in one pocket, and come out another pocket.
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Apparently in this case Diamond saw the video and sent a technician out to fix the table. I don’t think a properly functioning ball return does this.
 
Thomas Martin said:
I have been playing pool for about 60 years, and this the first time ever seeing this happen. I had never seen a ball go in one pocket, and come out another pocket.
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This happened to m on a 4x8 La Montana at the Corner Pocket Colorado Spring 80's.
Made my eyes pop out :).
Cheap table, surprised Frank McGowan allowed em.
 
straightline said:
There should be a possibility of the shot being allowed. Ball went through the jaws into the cup and then found its way out. There were only two balls already in the pocket.

Legally struck well within equipment tolerance standards; freak defect. Shot allowed.
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Rules are written so that all players encountering the same situation proceed in the same manner.

If you allow for subjectivity, then the rules aren't rules, they're only suggestions...
 
David in FL said:
How would you rewrite the rule so that there was no subjectivity? So everyone would proceed in the exact same manner when encountering the exact same situation?
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Like I said, one size fits all. Why do they need refs? Aren't the rules clear? Players can't think for themselves?
Rules like these are just preemptive concessions. I'd go with < a ball that has exceeded the external limits of a pocket shall be considered pocketed>.
Stuffing a pocket to prevent a scratch would be disallowed but hopping the CB off the back rim of the pocket would be allowed.

By the same token, a pocket full of balls is the mfgers fault and balls inadvertently shot into a full pocket should be allowed. If a pocket is at anytime declared full, it should be emptied.

Final point, rethink pool pockets. Web and net pockets seem to absorb most shots etc...
 
straightline said:
Like I said, one size fits all. Why do they need refs? Aren't the rules clear? Players can't think for themselves?
Rules like these are just preemptive concessions. I'd go with < a ball that has exceeded the external limits of a pocket shall be considered pocketed>.
Stuffing a pocket to prevent a scratch would be disallowed but hopping the CB off the back rim of the pocket would be allowed.

By the same token, a pocket full of balls is the mfgers fault and balls inadvertently shot into a full pocket should be allowed. If a pocket is at anytime declared full, it should be emptied.

Final point, rethink pool pockets. Web and net pockets seem to absorb most shots etc...
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Or we could use, "if the ball doesn't stay in the pocket, it's not pocketed". 😁

The rules don't exist to help or to hinder. They don't exist to punish or reward. Only exist to tell us how to play the game.

And again they have to do so in a way that everybody plays it in the same manner when confronted by the same situation. Whether there's a referee there or not. No "thinking" required.
 
If you've seen the inside of a ProAm then you'd know that video shot is next to impossible IF the table was set-up correctly. Seen a million shots on D'mond barboxes and never seen that. I have seen shots go in/come out the same pocket on old Valley's a lot.
 
InsertCleverNameHere said:
I've seen this a handful of times but never on video! Have had it happen to me personally twice oddly enough it actually benefitted me as I would've hooked myself both times but instead it became a safety my opponent had to deal with, Lucky lucky.d
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I was going to make that comment but thought no one would believe it. I had it happen. The reason it happens is the ball return feed into a center channel an then go to the ball box. The side pockets channels line up.

It is funny on one of those tables if you drop two balls in the tables foot pockets 1 and 2, they come out in the box 2 and 1.
 
David in FL said:
Or we could use, "if the ball doesn't stay in the pocket, it's not pocketed". 😁
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The rule already says that. The problem is that's verbage for solution. This thread is testament to that.

Pockets should take and hold a ball shot at any speed. Clearly they do not. The correct verbage therefore is, if the ball went in at all, it's good. If it bounces out and sets other balls in motion, mfger error, still good.
 
straightline said:
Pockets should take and hold a ball shot at any speed. Clearly they do not. The correct verbage therefore is, if the ball went in at all, it's good. If it bounces out and sets other balls in motion, mfger error, still good.
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Says who?

Sometimes you get good luck, sometimes bad.

Sometimes tables are perfect, sometimes not. The rules don't care which.

The game is what it is.
 
David in FL said:
Says who?

Sometimes you get good luck, sometimes bad.

Sometimes tables are perfect, sometimes not. The rules don't care which.

The game is what it is.
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You asked.
I said.

The element of of surprise is pretty cool and often hilarious but the game of pool is way beyond dumb luck. If the tables were cars, they'd have to be recalled. They cost enough...
The <is what it is> 'word' is how come the foreigners will pillage. There's a reign in foreign. :LOL:
 
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