Double Hit or Not? You Make the Call.

[Hail Mary Shot]

What proof do you think there is of a foul? Did the arguments and analysis in my video not convince you otherwise?

I was referring to the initial video that you posted. upon impact on the ob, the cb appeared start drawing back in a backward trajectory then suddenly it looked it popped upwards when it appeared it double hit. again this is difficult to judge in real time and especially with that close of a proximity and the hit happening in millisecs.

 

[straightline]

I was referring to the initial video that you posted. upon impact on the ob, the cb appeared start drawing back in a backward trajectory then suddenly it looked it popped upwards when it appeared it double hit. again this is difficult to judge in real time and especially with that close of a proximity and the hit happening in millisecs.

FWIW you can see the interference pattern on the second hit - indicating there might not even be a second contact. IDK...

 

[Mensabum]

FYI, I just posted a new video that shows an example of a double hit foul call situation that came up in a recent pool league match. Do you think I made the correct call? Check it out:

Supporting Resources:

• fouls resource page: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/
• how to detect and avoid a double hit: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/double-hit/

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!

Looked like a double to me. The tip makes obvious 2nd contact, but fine line on whether to call it. Nits would, in a heartbeat, as would most pros in a tourney I imagine, if they could.
In the halls down here, that's a good shot. Drawing back from elevation is tough. If the player makes it look that good, he can have it, imo.
I've never been called for that shot. Always took it for granted it was a clean hit.
Thanks Doc for showing us otherwise. Good Stuff!!
Btw... Can you show us how to make that shot without the double contact?? Is it possible??

 

[Jimmorrison]

Wow, the replies in this thread, illustrate exactly why I don’t let people call fouls. Most people have no idea.

 

[David in FL]

If I'm watching that shot at full speed/real time, I call it a good hit all day.

I admit, I fully expected that the subsequent video/analysis was going to prove me wrong.

Too many "refs" don't understand that the "default" call is in favor of the shooter unless there's clear evidence to the contrary. Equally, too many don't understand that more often than not, that "clear evidence" is based on the movement of the cue ball, not on a clearly visible double hit...

 

[Biloxi Boy]

Larger question: Should you have been the person to make the call? Was a neutral party not available?

 

[David in FL]

Looked like a double to me. The tip makes obvious 2nd contact, but fine line on whether to call it. Nits would, in a heartbeat, as would most pros in a tourney I imagine, if they could.
In the halls down here, that's a good shot. Drawing back from elevation is tough. If the player makes it look that good, he can have it, imo.
I've never been called for that shot. Always took it for granted it was a clean hit.
Thanks Doc for showing us otherwise. Good Stuff!!
Btw... Can you show us how to make that shot without the double contact?? Is it possible??

Watch the whole video. You'll see that it was a good hit...

 

[dr_dave]

I was referring to the initial video that you posted. upon impact on the ob, the cb appeared start drawing back in a backward trajectory then suddenly it looked it popped upwards when it appeared it double hit. again this is difficult to judge in real time and especially with that close of a proximity and the hit happening in millisecs.

Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[gregcantrall]

That said, I would never call this foul on an opponent.

That's my position as well. I rely on the sound of the contact. If it's so slight that it doesn't make a audible click click it's a good hit in my book. double hits can be felt. And if I feel it I call it on myself.

 

[VVP]

Looks like after the hit, the tip moved downwards to the other side of the CB from where the camera was giving the impression of a double hit.

Q. Is it physically possible to get a double kiss if the CB and OB is separated by just more than a chalk width distance and you are allowed to shoot the CB with a forward stroke? That is, the CB hits the OB twice in the same forward movement. If no under perfect conditions, is a double kiss possible if the OB skids after initial contact thereby slowing down it's normal movement?

I have seen instances where you hear a double hit/kiss sound and some argue it's a double hit while others say it's a double kiss.

 

[dr_dave]

Looked like a double to me. The tip makes obvious 2nd contact

I don't think this is clear at all based on the limited camera angle (where the tip is slightly behind the CB) and the limited zoom, resolution, and clarity of the image.

Can you show us how to make that shot without the double contact?? Is it possible??

It is most certainly possible, as was the case with the shot in the video. If the cue were jacked up more, it would have been a lot less close.

FYI, I show many techniques for avoiding possible double hits like this on the double hit resource page. This video shows 10 ways to do it:

 

[dr_dave]

If I'm watching that shot at full speed/real time, I call it a good hit all day.

I admit, I fully expected that the subsequent video/analysis was going to prove me wrong.

That was my intention. I wanted people to be fooled like I was.

Too many "refs" don't understand that the "default" call is in favor of the shooter unless there's clear evidence to the contrary. Equally, too many don't understand that more often than not, that "clear evidence" is based on the movement of the cue ball, not on a clearly visible double hit...

Well stated.

 

[dr_dave]

Larger question: Should you have been the person to make the call? Was a neutral party not available?

The slo-mo video was the "neutral party." My opponent and I watched and discussed the video and made the wrong call together.

Usually, slo-mo video makes the correct call obvious. When this is not the case, the benefit of doubt always goes to the shooter (no foul). See:

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Too close to call, it goes to the shooter. Filming every shot and calling fouls off of slow mo or sound is ruining this game. These videos 'educating' people are bad for the sport. We play a completely analog game, it should be left that way.

 

[dr_dave]

Is it physically possible to get a double kiss if the CB and OB is separated by just more than a chalk width distance and you are allowed to shoot the CB with a forward stroke? That is, the CB hits the OB twice in the same forward movement.

Yes. If the CB jumps nearly on top of the OB, the CB can "ride" the OB with multiple hits. Concerning double hits of the tip on the CB, it can happen over a wide range of gaps sizes (even much greater than a chalk width) and cue elevations. See:

 

[dr_dave]

I have seen instances where you hear a double hit/kiss sound ...

Sounds is not a reliable indicator of a foul. See the videos here for examples:

trying to use sound to detect a foul
​

For example, see and listen to the examples here:

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
Q. Is it physically possible to get a double kiss if the CB and OB is separated by just more than a chalk width distance and you are allowed to shoot the CB with a forward stroke? That is, the CB hits the OB twice in the same forward movement. If no under perfect conditions, is a double kiss possible if the OB skids after initial contact thereby slowing down it's normal movement?

If neither ball hits anything else, and the tip hits the cue ball only once, the only way for the cue ball to hit the object ball twice is to elevate, the cue ball just nicks the OB on the way up, and then hits it on the way down.

Well, there is one other way and that's to shoot an extreme but soft masse shot. It's a common shot at carom billiards but is never seen at pool.

 

[dr_dave]

These videos 'educating' people are bad for the sport.

I disagree. Ignorance is not bliss (unless one is ignorant).

 

[fastone371]

FYI, I just posted a new video that shows an example of a double hit foul call situation that came up in a recent pool league match. Do you think I made the correct call? Check it out:

Supporting Resources:

• fouls resource page: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/
• how to detect and avoid a double hit: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/double-hit/

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!

On the initial normal speed replay I called it a good hit because of the cue ball action but then you got me and I changed my mind on the slo-mo view, great job!!! What we can't see in the slo-mo view is whether or not the tip is offset from the cue ball centerline, if the tip is in fact offset we can have CB and tip overlap from that camera view without a secondary contact. My first call was correct, good hit, I should have stuck with it.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I disagree. Ignorance is not bliss (except for the ignorant).

Ever consider that you stopping his rhythm to set up your camera may have affected his execution?

Tell us how that second hit changed the outcome of the shot. Can you say for sure that the altered outcome was a benefit to the player?

These videos are basically like a middle school hall monitor knowing he is right by the letter of the rules, but fully ignoring the intent.