Questions about the the history of ball in hand

[Lowell]

It appears that pro pool phased in ball in hand in by the end of the 1980s. But what about amateur leagues like APA and BCA? My google searching did not bring up any exact answers.

And even when amateur leagues adopted ball in hand, how common was it for non-league players to play with ball in hand rules?

I would say that about 1/4 of the people I come across at bar tables prefer APA or BCA rules, while everyone else plays bar rules. That is usually out of familiarity rather than hatred of ball in hand, however sometimes I do come across people who actually hate ball in hand. I remember a chorus of frat bros shouting "ball in hand is for pussies!" when one of them lost a game after fouling while I was on the 8.

I got into pool at age 28 (I'm 31 now), and I genuinely didn't know ball in hand existed until then. I was skeptical at first, but it's what really made me fall in love with the game. The rules about fouls in both APA and BCA (and of course, WPA) add a symmetry to the game that makes it much more enjoyable to me than people just blasting balls around with no actual consequences for fouling.

 

[garczar]

when i first played BCA in early 80's it was in the kitchen if u scratched on break but bih after that. i don't know when BCA went to full on bih everywhere, late 80's iirc. Might contact CSI. The Camel tour used to have a few rule mods like balls made on fouls spot, in the kitchen if scratch on break. The current style of rules started really with the TexasExpressTour hence the name of the rules. There it was bih on ANY foul and no balls spot.

 

[maha]

ball in hand. also called texas express. was started in one of the johnston city tournaments by the jansco brothers. to speed up the tournaments
in the 1960's.

and then they also had the stardust tournament which also used it. from there it slowly went to most tournaments and then to pool rooms later on about 15 years later.

depending on areas of the country the time it took for all the 9 ball players to play that way varied.

and that basically ruined gambling at 9 ball and made one pocket by far the gambling game in pool rooms or most pool rooms.
to my delight.

first time i saw it. someone came in the pool room, and i always played any new face at least one game to clock his speed.
he shot a shot or so, then hooked me up. i missed the kick as we didn't use kicks much then and he ran out. i quit and realized that it no longer was a game of playing pool but a game of hooking the player unless you were run out players.

so basically if you are not a run out player you should just play to hook your opponent instead of making shots and putting him closer to the nine.
so if you aren't a run out player or don't have an easy one then you should not make any more balls than you have to, only to hook him and try to get him on three fouls.

other wise you are the sucker.

 

[Island Drive]

I think pro pool should allow each player one roll out per rack, then we'd see some Aggressive 4 or 5 or six railcue ball movement going into clusters.
I think the viewers would enjoy that ooh and ahhhhhh moment allot more.
But to protect their wallet they won't play Aggressive/attacking nine ball to ''go at'' tied up balls.

 

[Cornerman]

ball in hand. also called texas express. was started in one of the johnston city tournaments by the jansco brothers. to speed up the tournaments
in the 1960's.

and then they also had the stardust tournament which also used it. from there it slowly went to most tournaments and then to pool rooms later on about 15 years later.

depending on areas of the country the time it took for all the 9 ball players to play that way varied.

and that basically ruined gambling at 9 ball and made one pocket by far the gambling game in pool rooms or most pool rooms.
to my delight.

first time i saw it. someone came in the pool room, and i always played any new face at least one game to clock his speed.
he shot a shot or so, then hooked me up. i missed the kick as we didn't use kicks much then and he ran out. i quit and realized that it no longer was a game of playing pool but a game of hooking the player unless you were run out players.

so basically if you are not a run out player you should just play to hook your opponent instead of making shots and putting him closer to the nine.
so if you aren't a run out player or don't have an easy one then you should not make any more balls than you have to, only to hook him and try to get him on three fouls.

other wise you are the sucker.

One foul ball-in-hand predates Texas Express. There are other rules that came from Texas Express like all balls stay down.

 

[maha]

first i ever heard of the one foul rule was from johnston city. people called it texas express. although that may have had some more rules along with it. maybe it was played someplace else. lots of things start someplace and move into the spotlight.

in the 60's and later all balls stayed down in the places i was and traveled to.

dont know about all over the country as rules changed depending on the area you went.

down south, in shootout they played had to be two consecutive fouls by the same player not just two in a row.

 

[Cornerman]

It appears that pro pool phased in ball in hand in by the end of the 1980s. But what about amateur leagues like APA and BCA? My google searching did not bring up any exact answers.

And even when amateur leagues adopted ball in hand, how common was it for non-league players to play with ball in hand rules?

I would say that about 1/4 of the people I come across at bar tables prefer APA or BCA rules, while everyone else plays bar rules. That is usually out of familiarity rather than hatred of ball in hand, however sometimes I do come across people who actually hate ball in hand. I remember a chorus of frat bros shouting "ball in hand is for pussies!" when one of them lost a game after fouling while I was on the 8.

I got into pool at age 28 (I'm 31 now), and I genuinely didn't know ball in hand existed until then. I was skeptical at first, but it's what really made me fall in love with the game. The rules about fouls in both APA and BCA (and of course, WPA) add a symmetry to the game that makes it much more enjoyable to me than people just blasting balls around with no actual consequences for fouling.

Terry Bell told me that when the APA was formed, they used rules that the professionals were using at the time. The APA founders were professionals, and they had received input from other professionals who played 8-ball. So the APA had full table ball-in-hand rules from the start, which I believe was 1979. Seems a bit early, but he didn’t say that they changed rules.

The original BCA league used the BCA rules prior to being sold in 2004 to Mark Griffin , who continued using BCA rules before he created his set of CSI Rules. Google says the BCA Pool League started in 1978, so whenever the BCA explicitly switched to full-table ball-in-hand, the leagues would have also. @Bob Jewett is my go to on that question. I have a 1977 BCA rulebok and 1985 without anything in between. The 1985 mentions full-table BIH for 8-ball as an Option, but I don’t know if it was mentioned in rule books before that. Maybe 1985 was the major revision year after 1977?

I’m sure there will be confusion on what I wrote on the BCA, which remains today as the North American representative to the WPA, versus the BCA Pool League, so ask away.

 

[Cornerman]

first i ever heard of the one foul rule was from johnston city. people called it texas express. although that may have had some more rules along with it. maybe it was played someplace else. lots of things start someplace and move into the spotlight.

in the 60's and later all balls stayed down in the places i was and traveled to.

dont know about all over the country as rules changed depending on the area you went.

down south, in shootout they played had to be two consecutive fouls by the same player not just two in a row.

That might very well be the history of what eventually became Texas Express. Very interesting.

 

[maha]

i knew paullie and remember him telling me he started it at least in his tournaments just to speed things up and few players liked it.

but his tournaments, johnston city and the stardust, were more of a gathering of gamblers than a test to see who was best. although it worked close to that by the results.

fats was probably the reason they even had them as he prodded them for something like that. before anyone even knew who the two brothers were. george died young early so it continued on with paullie.

 

[garczar]

Ball in hand was intended to do ONE thing: speed up tournaments not make the game better. Just faster.

 

[3kushn]

ball in hand. also called texas express. was started in one of the johnston city tournaments by the jansco brothers. to speed up the tournaments
in the 1960's.

and then they also had the stardust tournament which also used it. from there it slowly went to most tournaments and then to pool rooms later on about 15 years later.

depending on areas of the country the time it took for all the 9 ball players to play that way varied.

I first picked up a cue shortly after becoming a student in Carbondale, IL in late 1973. Carbondale is about 25 miles from Johnston City.

The most popular game in Carbondale at that time was 9Ball.

All played (without some negotiation) if shooter fouls, the opoenent has the option of shooting or giving it back.
If the shooter fouls again, then the oponent gets ball in hand anywhere.

I like those rules, but never argue about rules. Don't play much pool anymore, so don't really care....

Just commenting on your timeline about the rule.

Maybe the 2 Locals that competed at Jansco's pushed the local rules.
Don't know?

 

[garczar]

I first picked up a cue shortly after becoming a student in Carbondale, IL in late 1973. Carbondale is about 25 miles from Johnston City.

The most popular game in Carbondale at that time was 9Ball.

All played (without some negotiation) if shooter fouls, the opoenent has the option of shooting or giving it back.
If the shooter fouls again, then the oponent gets ball in hand anywhere.

I like those rules, but never argue about rules. Don't play much pool anymore, so don't really care....

Just commenting on your timeline about the rule.

That's two-foul/two shot 9ball. That's how i learned to play. Great game imo.

 

[maha]

yes that wasnt the current game of one foul ball in hand. as garczar said it was,, two-foul/two shot 9ball,, also called push out, and shoot out.

and was played almost anywhere they gambled except bars until the 70's sometimes it slowly started going to ball in hand as other tournaments picked that up.

the old bar rules and still some places are,, try to make a hit or get hit.

 

[3kushn]

yes that wasnt the current game of one foul ball in hand. as garczar said it was,, two-foul/two shot 9ball,, also called push out, and shoot out.

and was played almost anywhere they gambled except bars until the 70's sometimes it slowly started going to ball in hand as other tournaments picked that up.

the old bar rules and still some places are,, try to make a hit or get hit.

The rule was collecually called "Roll Out"

A player that didn't have a shot could roll the CB to a position that presented half a chance.
The oppoent took a look and decided to take that chance or give it back.