Team USA and the future of the Mosconi

[nmh2008]

Y'all remember when Greg Hogue was one hill-hill win against one of the 2nd tier pros in Europe (like Fortunski or Loukatis or something?) from making the Mosconi cup?

The culture in this country isn't really conducive to developing elite pool players. To get to that level requires an immense amount of time, effort, focus, and patience. There's a cost element to it as well but IMO it's far less than the softer factors. Anybody willing to do that has far more lucrative and certain paths to go down.

 

[nmh2008]

And yes, the lack of big tables is also a factor. I live in a small city with a decent pool culture – there are 3 pool halls and only 2 9-foot tables and about 40 bar boxes. The big tables are tight and more geared towards one pocket

 

[penguin]

Frazer said player captains was a failure. She is desperate for the U.S. to win and will accept anything that accomplishes the goal. That’s why they brought back Johan after giving him a stiff arm for a few years.


I think MR and Frazer have finally figured this out. She is talking up young players a lot now.

The only thing she is desperate for is to keep promoting herself.

Pool is simply her latest vehicle to do that.

 

[jbart65]

... and yet the only player that has been talked up for Mosconi by a WNT commentator all year is a thirty-nine year old. I don't think they have figured it out yet.

The only young American player worth talking up for the Mosconi was Lukas Fracasso-Verner. He was third in ranking points until he got hurt. JJ and Frost did, in fact, talk him up a bit in commentary on Table 1 this year.

Yet given a choice, I would have taken Bergman over Lukas if the goal is to try to win now. He is simply a better player. If Lukas comes back from injury and gets back in pre-injury form, he will get talked about next year.

Player captains was, quite simply, one more step in the direction of validating the claim of many that the Mosconi selection process is not always a meritocracy.

Frazer was surprisingly emphatic on the Boomer and Freezer show that player-captains was a failure. Boyes has been even more critical for some time now.

Reading between the lines, I don't think the move was part of some grand strategy. MR was pinching pennies. Frazer said it had been her view it was better to spend Mosconi money on players instead of coaches. I bet MR probably gave Woodward and Shaw smaller captaincy fees than they would have paid to coaches.

Pennywise, pound-foolish, as it turned out. Sky was a disaster as coach and the event became even less compelling.

... and yet the only player that has been talked up for Mosconi by a WNT commentator all year is a thirty-nine year old. I don't think they have figured it out yet.

You forget too soon. Shane Woolford was added to the Mosconi team in 2023 when he was 23 or 24. He acquitted himself fairly well, but he's been a sporadic attendee at WNT events since 2024. Wolford didn't even play in this year's U.S. Open.

Can't talk about youngsters who don't perform. In any case, Frazer has talked up Hayn Ernest and Gavin Mathew this year and done selfies for social media, but it's too soon for her to be giving them lots of buzz given their young age.

Matchroom has had no trouble talking up AJ Manas, Albert Januarta and Felix Fogel. How come? They have the talent to warrant it.

This has not really been an issue for Team Europe, as you are fully aware. Their teams have been stacked with top players, but to be fair, young guys who've gotten on the team have been automatic qualifiers. The wild card picks since 2020 have been veterans.

 

[jbart65]

There is already a Texas Open and it has a very long history. She might have to fight Texas at the Alamo if she tries to stage a Texas Open, those people are fanatics.

Easy to come up with another name, such as Dallas Open or any other city being used.

Matchroom could try to co-run the current Texas Open's 9-ball tourney, but more likely, the WNT would have to give a new open a different name as Jay suggests and hold the event well before or after the existing Texas Open.

 

[jbart65]

What about one woman player? They actually did that in the first year or two. I think adding a Junior and a woman would add to the entertaiment value and also make it more competitive.

I'm all in for continuing the MC!

I don't think MR can do both. Seven players is too much. Jayson Shaw and others have said Mosconi teams need a sixth player. A junior would make sense - or say an under-25 player (under-24, under-23, etc).

 

[jbart65]

All this jabber isn't going to change the ONE big issue: getting US players back on the big table in large numbers. Unless this happens, and QUICK btw, the US will be major underdogs for YEARS. US 'might' steal one every now-n-then but that will be the exception not the rule.

And yes, the lack of big tables is also a factor. I live in a small city with a decent pool culture – there are 3 pool halls and only 2 9-foot tables and about 40 bar boxes. The big tables are tight and more geared towards one pocket

As this jabberer has pointed out, WNT is adding more big events in the U.S. for men and for juniors to try to improve the pool of talent in America. It's also part of the reason why they sought a deal with ESPN.

Impossible dream? Maybe. But it certainly cannot hurt.

In the past few months, I've seen a few dozen young Americans playing on the big tables. Some of them looked outstanding. Haydn Ernst and Gavin Mathew, if they stick to pool, could be future U.S. stars.

In a country of 342 million, I've got to believe a handful of top players will emerge in the next 5-10 years. Once SVB fades out, sponsors will look to support a few potential American stars.

 

[boogeyman]

I think the motives extend beyond this.

We are already seeing some of the top Asians bowing out of WNT play, in large part because they can now earn a solid living at home through the Duya Tour and Heyball. There are also high-purse Predator PBS events in Asia, with events in both Vietnam and Indonesia in the next month.

If the Americans continue to skip or perform poorly at the WNT majors, they will stop showing up. Three members of Team USA from 2025 (SVB, Woodward, Thorpe) skipped both of the two WNT majors contested in Europe. Even when they do show up in American-based events, they are failing (0 quarterfinalists at Vice City, 2 quarterfinalists at the Florida Open, 1 quarterfinalist at the Arizona Open, 1 quarterfinalist at the Phoenix Open and 1 quarterfinalist at the US Open). The American players, as a group, are in a very long slump and American fans will gradually lose interest unless some young American players emerge as world class players.

I am sure Matchroom realizes that if Asian and American participation in WNT events continues to decline and American results continue to disappoint, their tour will become a chiefly European tour which will not draw too many eyes elsewhere.

As American pros, because of their mediocre results, must manage their participation costs more than most, building a greater presence in America might just be their only shot, and the Matchroom management team is a capable one that surely understands this.

That would be nice.

Yeah, I have no idea how far either will rise, but at least there is steady progress from these two young players and they appear sufficiently committed to their development.

I do not see much progress being made in this respect. Perhaps, though, I am uninformed.

I think Hayden Ernst is just 14. Matchroom's commitment to having junior events in conjunction with their majors is something I ave always admired. They do it in America as well as at majors contested elsewhere. Yes, some of these youngsters have possibilities.

If the WNT can survive a few more years with it's current model and continue to expand, more Americans will indeed emerge. Just don't count on all of them being young. There is a cohort of older players (40-60) who are going to suddenly (re)appear. These are players who have years and years of knowledge and practice who have decided to get serious about the game again. Many of them have the time and money to invest in themselves.

There is no reason why the American player profile has to skew younger. There are too many other avocations for younger people. We shouldn't expect this sudden wave of young players to start playing. That train has passed in America.

The only real physicality in pool is the break and that has become more "finessed" over the years. The game is becoming more about knowledge and experience (years at the table). It's going to be an older player's game in a few years. These younger players can make balls, sure, but you win games with intelligence, not power. Just ask Efren. He played elite in to his 60s. The late Danny Diliberto once told me (yes, directly to me), "experience beats youth any day." I think he was onto something.

 

[jay helfert]

I don't think MR can do both. Seven players is too much. Jayson Shaw and others have said Mosconi teams need a sixth player. A junior would make sense - or say an under-25 player (under-24, under-23, etc).

Five players? Three men, one woman and one junior.

 

[jbart65]

The only thing she is desperate for is to keep promoting herself.

Pool is simply her latest vehicle to do that.

View attachment 928324

I see this a lot on AZB and social media, most notably from Molina Mike. Emily is all about herself. Tinges of sexism? I wouldn’t go that far - yet.

Maybe she is. Maybe not. I’ll leave that to her bosses at Matchroom to decide. They see what she is doing - and not doing - every day. We don’t. For all we know, her bosses decided the NextGen event should be called the Frazer cup.

Now, I admit. I do find Frazer’s social-media activity to be unusually active. Why does she do it? Only she knows. I suspect two chief reasons.

First, her job to make pro pool a thing is daunting. Like lots of people tasked to do the impossible, she thinks force of personality can help her achieve her goal. It can’t. Markets are too big and fickle for that.

The more likely reason is she thinks all the attention she draws to herself draws attention to Matchroom and the WNT.

When she does interviews on more mainstream media outlets, she is trying to raise the profile of the WNT and get more people interested in pool. Her life story - a nobody who became a small somebody - is interesting.

Her social-media activity appeared geared toward that. Is Frazer’s ego involved, too? Probably. But it seems like everybody who is anybody these days has a big social media presence.

In any case, I wouldn’t begrudge her if her social media presence also helped her to land another job when her WNT run is over. Until such time, I will judge her by what I always judge her on. Her effort to improve the WNT and expand its audience.

On this score, I give her a B.

In 2026, WNT created lots of new events in the U.S, including a terrific U.S. Open in Texas. It delivered a solid WNT.TV app. It brought back the World Pool Masters. It got a landmark deal with ESPN. And the WNT was somewhat better at releasing most of its schedule early.

The negatives? The schedule still needs to come out sooner. WNT.TV’s launch was a misfire. The World Pool Championship was delayed and perhaps even postponed for 2026. The Hanoi Open was dumped without any public explanation. And prize funds stayed the same this year.

 

[jbart65]

Five players? Three men, one woman and one junior.

Even worse, Jay. Cuts out two men for a good pay day. The teams aren't going to shrink. Nothing in sports really shrinks.

Hard to justify a woman, either, since they aren't part of the WNT and don't collect points.

Consider this, too. A good argument can be made from an entertainment perspective -- look at what Predator is doing - but the talent gap between the Mosconi teams will only widen if women are involved. Europe has many good native-born female players. The U.S. has none, really.

 

[skogstokig]

And yes, the lack of big tables is also a factor. I live in a small city with a decent pool culture – there are 3 pool halls and only 2 9-foot tables and about 40 bar boxes. The big tables are tight and more geared towards one pocket

that is a crazy ratio. but is it a supply or demand issue?

 

[Rocket354]

that is a crazy ratio. but is it a supply or demand issue?

In most places, it is a revenue per square foot issue.

 

[Cord]

that is a crazy ratio. but is it a supply or demand issue?

My gut reaction is, "demand." A great place near me has five beautiful 9' Diamonds, and ten or eleven 7' Diamonds. $6/hr table time; $3 draft pints. On any number of occasions, I've seen all of the barboxes in use, and none of the big tables.

 

[Rocket354]

I think both the WNT and the Predator PBS are starting to make some headway in making pool more respectable, but I think the bigger issue is the culture of the poolroom itself. Until the typical poolroom is a place where parents are comfortable leaving their children to play, participation among juniors will disappoint, and I do not think we have accomplished this yet in America. It will help if televised pool causes parents to have more respect for the game, but unless they come to view the poolroom scene as respectable, it may not be enough.

Agreed. A pool table is difficult for a lot of families to dedicate an entire room to, not to mention the actual cost and effort involved in getting one. So the only option is to go to the publicly available pool tables. Most of those are cordoned off in bars where one has to be 21. So it's quite difficult for kids to get regular access to a pool table. Until that happens, pool in the US will lag the rest of the world.

Compounding the issue is that most pool rooms, even those accessible to kids, are just dumps. Anecdotally, the closest one to me and the only one that allows kids (until 7? 9? pm at least) is also the cleanest and most respectable one. It just had a shooting a few months ago, in a town that doesn't get many shootings. One farther away is located in one of the worst parts of town with literal crackheads roaming the area and lots of businesses go on lockdown once the sun goes down.

I tried taking my niece and her friend to go play pool a few years ago, to another pool hall that allowed kids during the day. Going into the bathroom there was literal pornography plastered on the walls.

It is a steep and treacherous uphill climb we face to get pool to where it is accessible and appropriate for kids. I don't know what the solution is, but for now it is a catch-22. Pool is not popular with kids, therefore no one makes it accessible to kids. But because it isn't accessible, no kids can grow up loving the sport and it won't be popular with them.

It is no coincidence that Shane grew up in a pool-loving family with access to pool tables from a very young age. Until that situation is more common for kids, the US will never be competitive on the international stage.

 

[Rocket354]

My gut reaction is, "demand." A great place near me has five beautiful 9' Diamonds, and ten or eleven 7' Diamonds. $6/hr table time; $3 draft pints. On any number of occasions, I've seen all of the barboxes in use, and none of the big tables.

Barboxes are also what the overwhelming majority of leagues play on, and of course tournaments, as well. I know a lot of people who play/practice on them because they want to play/practice on the same tables they compete on. The underlying issue is businesses can get more tables and therefore more revenue into any one space with them and so they've taken over.

 

[Rocket354]

The people here mentioning parents are right to include them as a significant factor. I agree with the sentiments of SJM here, but I would go a bit further.

Using the moneyboard on the AZBilliards home page (and I will admit that I don't know how accurate it is) Wiktor Zielinski has made about 86k by September, with some events remaining in the year. He may likely gross 100k plus sponsorships and minus expenses. The expense number here is surely not small.

White collar professions are offering less and less with an increasing cost to access jobs and stay in those jobs. The cost to enter these professions versus the payoff is diminishing, if the trajectory continues, we will reach a tipping point. I don't think we are there yet. Blue-collar jobs are cheaper to enter and are currently offering extremely high upsides related to the cost.

I think parents would look at this moneyboard and think, "is my kid more likely to be a mediocre HVAC professional, plumber, diesel mechanic, accountant, lawyer, financial planner, etc. or a world class pool player like Wiktor?" Additionally, I believe Poland has some kind of publicly funded healthcare. American players (if they are smart) are paying for individual private healthcare, which is expensive. Still further, parents are always concerned about grandkids. Can a pool player make enough to sustain not just himself, but a family?

There is more to life than a salary and benefits. Some of that "more to life" is achieved when you live out a dream and win the U.S. Open hill-hill on ESPN, and some of that "more to life" is accessed when you walk with your wife and kids to the bus stop on the first day of school.

Currently, pool players have to choose which priceless moments to pursue. Until pool can pay enough money to allow a player to support a family and enough to compensate him (and his family) for him missing walks to the bus stop, pool will have a problem. Right now, maybe the absolute top players make an amount that approaches this? But then the question gets worse, "Is my kid more likely to be a mediocre HVAC professional or Fedor Gorst?"

Parents will look at the AZBilliards money board and tell their kids the deposits are too light. The good news is that some kids don't listen to their parents.

kollegedave

Pool payouts are attractive to those in countries not as rich as the US. For many families in the Philippines, Vietnam, eastern Europe, etc, pool can be a financially lucrative aspiration. For those in the US, trying to be a professional pool player is a lot of effort for a payout that, for anyone not in the top-10 in the world, is less than a typical FT worker. Even if you are in the top-10 in the world, you are earning as much as, what, a middle manager in a decent-sized corporation?

The payouts will increase when popularity increases. Popularity will increase when more people are involved. More people will be involved when
payouts increase, er, more people regularly enjoy the game, which means more people are able to safely play the game as kids.

 

[garczar]

As this jabberer has pointed out, WNT is adding more big events in the U.S. for men and for juniors to try to improve the pool of talent in America. It's also part of the reason why they sought a deal with ESPN.

Impossible dream? Maybe. But it certainly cannot hurt.

In the past few months, I've seen a few dozen young Americans playing on the big tables. Some of them looked outstanding. Haydn Ernst and Gavin Mathew, if they stick to pool, could be future U.S. stars.

In a country of 342 million, I've got to believe a handful of top players will emerge in the next 5-10 years. Once SVB fades out, sponsors will look to support a few potential American stars.

Europe could easily field 5-6 teams capable of beating any US squad. Yeah, its a dream.

 

[JPB2]

Agreed. A pool table is difficult for a lot of families to dedicate an entire room to, not to mention the actual cost and effort involved in getting one. So the only option is to go to the publicly available pool tables. Most of those are cordoned off in bars where one has to be 21. So it's quite difficult for kids to get regular access to a pool table. Until that happens, pool in the US will lag the rest of the world.

Compounding the issue is that most pool rooms, even those accessible to kids, are just dumps. Anecdotally, the closest one to me and the only one that allows kids (until 7? 9? pm at least) is also the cleanest and most respectable one. It just had a shooting a few months ago, in a town that doesn't get many shootings. One farther away is located in one of the worst parts of town with literal crackheads roaming the area and lots of businesses go on lockdown once the sun goes down.

I tried taking my niece and her friend to go play pool a few years ago, to another pool hall that allowed kids during the day. Going into the bathroom there was literal pornography plastered on the walls.

It is a steep and treacherous uphill climb we face to get pool to where it is accessible and appropriate for kids. I don't know what the solution is, but for now it is a catch-22. Pool is not popular with kids, therefore no one makes it accessible to kids. But because it isn't accessible, no kids can grow up loving the sport and it won't be popular with them.

It is no coincidence that Shane grew up in a pool-loving family with access to pool tables from a very young age. Until that situation is more common for kids, the US will never be competitive on the international stage.

This is the problem and it is a difficult one. A home table isn’t enough as far as player development. I’m not sure the issue can be solved. I’m old and grew up in a city with pool halls I could have gone to but I didn’t know it until I was about 18. I always was interested but didn’t really have a chance to play. Not saying I would have been great, but I’m getting at the reality and the culture issue. There is zero chance my parents would have taken me to pool halls.

My parents would pay for and drive to all kinds of activities but no way would they have done that for pool. 5:30 AM hockey game in January- no problem. Baseball camp, no problem. Etc…. One of the pool halls where kids could be? No.

The way it might change is with the club model being tried some places. A small town in my area has a new room that is more geared to families and is providing opportunities for juniors. But we are a long way from soccer or similar sports as far as access. Bowling is probably way ahead isn’t it?

 

[jbart65]

My gut reaction is, "demand." A great place near me has five beautiful 9' Diamonds, and ten or eleven 7' Diamonds. $6/hr table time; $3 draft pints. On any number of occasions, I've seen all of the barboxes in use, and none of the big tables.

It’s very hard to tell how many American kids are playing pool. I think there has been an increase in recent years. The internet has made it more accessible and the number of tables in the U.S. goes up every year.

The only thing we know for certain is that it’s hard for young players to find and play on 9-foot tables since most of them are in bars.

The U.S. has as few as 7 million tables in homes or as many as 12 million, based on estimates I’ve seen. I suspect it’s closer to the lower number, but it’s impossible to know, really.

An estimated 700,000 new tables are sold each year, with slightly less than half purchased by residential customers. There was a big surge in sales during the pandemic, but they have slowed back to normal rates.

Between 100,000 to 150,000 new tables sold each year are 9-foot tables, but most are bought by commercial establishments.

Turns out 8-footers are still dominant in the home market. I had an 8-foot table growing up.

Texas and Florida alone account for about one-third of new pool table sales, one research report determined. They represent about 16% of the population.

An estimated 20 million Americans reportedly play regularly, with another 10 to 15 million people being very casual or occasional users.

The APA claims about 275,000 members.