Fargo Rate Manipulation Pro Tips

[Cartune]

I think it's pretty hard to dump 50 points off your speed.

No, not when they dump every game. I have seen some players dedicate an entire seasons to just lose. This is mainly in league play (APA, BCA, UPL) and normaly it is before the larger Vegas Tournaments, so they can get action in the minis or match up with someone for a few bucks. Most of these people do not have "careers" so this is the way they can cheat the system to make some food money.

 

[GideonF]

No, not when they dump every game. I have seen some players dedicate an entire seasons to just lose. This is mainly in league play (APA, BCA, UPL) and normaly it is before the larger Vegas Tournaments, so they can get action in the minis or match up with someone for a few bucks. Most of these people do not have "careers" so this is the way they can cheat the system to make some food money.

I guess it depends how active the player is. In my BCA league you play 5 games per week. If I go 1-4 in league and then enter a tournament that week and perform normally, I’m probably getting 20-30 games in the system - more if I have a really deep run. UPL and APA I assume don’t feed into Fargo.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

If you're a 600 fargo and want to get up to 610 without having higher rated players in your league to play you need to win about 100 games in a row against the available field.

If on the other hand you need to quickly get down to a 590 for an upcoming capped event all you have to do is hang the nine ball about a dozen times playing 400 players in league play. You can get there in a matter of hours.

Your welcome!

FARGO. Don’t you mead FRAUD-O. I think it’s a lot of BUNK-O. I can’t imagine walking into a pool hall and asking someone “what’s your FARGO rating” before we put something in the middle.

 

[garczar]

I guess it depends how active the player is. In my BCA league you play 5 games per week. If I go 1-4 in league and then enter a tournament that week and perform normally, I’m probably getting 20-30 games in the system - more if I have a really deep run. UPL and APA I assume don’t feed into Fargo.

Agree. Its usually the FR haters that make it sound so easy to drop points. Its not. The various league operators need to get involved and just ban these maggots. Typical thief mentality: they'd rather steal $5 than work for $50. No rating system will ever be perfect but FR generally works very well.

 

[garczar]

FARGO. Don’t you mead FRAUD-O. I think it’s a lot of BUNK-O. I can’t imagine walking into a pool hall and asking someone “what’s your FARGO rating” before we put something in the middle.

Happens everyday in rooms/bars all over the country. The days of going on the road and nabbing all the low-hanging fruit are history.

 

[Cartune]

Happens everyday in rooms/bars all over the country. The days of going on the road and nabbing all the low-hanging fruit are history.

So very very true

 

[GideonF]

FARGO. Don’t you mead FRAUD-O. I think it’s a lot of BUNK-O. I can’t imagine walking into a pool hall and asking someone “what’s your FARGO rating” before we put something in the middle.

So you’re saying you’d rather walk into the bar and know nothing other than what you observe watching the guy (who might be on the stall), rather than also knowing his Fargo is 600 with 2000 games in the system?

 

[maha]

you dont have to drop 50 or 100 points and that is hard to do once you are established. that makes fargo a very good rating system.

but it is relatively easy to keep it low in the first place.
and a person out to make money in the tournaments isn't going around shooting the lights out. he wins by as small margin as he can. and loses when it doesn't matter to him. even in his own home room.
that's called a money player. he never slaughters someone, as then it kills off all his action in that class of player. and will at times break even with a worse player to establish his weaker speed. and it definitely works.

 

[jtompilot]

FARGO. Don’t you mead FRAUD-O. I think it’s a lot of BUNK-O. I can’t imagine walking into a pool hall and asking someone “what’s your FARGO rating” before we put something in the middle.

I get asked all the time “ what’s your Fargo”. It’s very common

 

[mikepage]

There’s big money at the Iron City events. An honest person with an honest handicap has very little chance from what I’ve heard.
[...]

This can be true even if nobody's cheating.

Let's imagine you're doing some big $$, big Calcutta tournament in your state.
Think of 100 players (not entrants, just potential players) in your home state you have on the list as a "5."
Then think of 100 players from neighboring states you have listed as a "5. "
Then 100 players from two or more states away you have listed as "5"

How do they actually play? I'm just talking about normal uncertainty here, not anybody cheating or going out of their way to hide.

Well you know your local players better, so
home state: 80 actually play like a 5, 10 play like a 4, 10 play like a 6
neighboring states 60 actually play like a 5, 15 play like a 6, 15 play like a 4, 5 play like a 7, 5 play like a 3
two or more states away: your knowledge is even fuzzier.

The people who actually enter from neighboring and far away states are not a random sample. If you happen to be on the list as a 5 and you play like a 6 or a 7, you are more likely to make the trip and your friends are more likely to say 'dude--you gotta go to this! they've got you as a 5!'

 

[maha]

mike,,, fargo is the best thing since sliced bread for most pool players. especially wanting league and tournaments.

it can be fudged like all things in life. this thread is about that.

 

[GideonF]

mike,,, fargo is the best thing since sliced bread for most pool players. especially wanting league and tournaments.

it can be fudged like all things in life. this thread is about that.

I agree with this. Although part of the problem is that Fargo is being used in a way Fargo Rate didn’t intend. “600 and under” (or any Fargo and under) is what causes most of these problems.

As I understand the ratings and handicapping, it’s designed to determine fair handicapped races, so players of materially different skill levels can compete on fairly even terms.

There is no material difference between a 605 and a 599, yet one can play and one can’t. So naturally this is going to incentivize a 605 to underperform in some matches so they drop below the arbitrary number. When used correctly, those few rating points are usually meaningless, so the incentive is not there.

 

[maha]

yes and this is not fargo's fault or intent. it is just a way some tournament officials do their picking of entrants and it is all on them .

if you want to use ratings then use them to also give correct spots to lesser players as they almost never play a true fair game to a higher rated player.

of course as always the better players complain and say it isnt right that the game is fair as they should have an advantage.

tournaments of skill are decided before they start unless they are made fair.

 

[Fore Rail]

There is no material difference between a 605 and a 599, yet one can play and one can’t. So naturally this is going to incentivize a 605 to underperform in some matches so they drop below the arbitrary number. When used correctly, those few rating points are usually meaningless, so the incentive is not there.

What you said here is of the utmost importance. There is a point where there is no difference between two players in skill level - for example the difference of 6 points like what is stated above.

Many tournament directors at their discretion have a "fudge factor" built into their events that allow players slightly over the cap to participate. Add a players meeting to that to decide whether or not to allow participants slightly over the cap & you have no problems.

There should be no incentive at all for a 605 to purposely drop to under 600 if the td is doing his/her job correctly.

CSI even has a 10 point individual rating cushion in place for their tournaments.

 

[maha]

yea but let the 605 player play a 595 and see how much better he does than the 599 one.

it does make a difference.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I agree with this. Although part of the problem is that Fargo is being used in a way Fargo Rate didn’t intend. “600 and under” (or any Fargo and under) is what causes most of these problems.

As I understand the ratings and handicapping, it’s designed to determine fair handicapped races, so players of materially different skill levels can compete on fairly even terms.

There is no material difference between a 605 and a 599, yet one can play and one can’t. So naturally this is going to incentivize a 605 to underperform in some matches so they drop below the arbitrary number. When used correctly, those few rating points are usually meaningless, so the incentive is not there.

yes and this is not fargo's fault or intent. it is just a way some tournament officials do their picking of entrants and it is all on them .

if you want to use ratings then use them to also give correct spots to lesser players as they almost never play a true fair game to a higher rated player.

of course as always the better players complain and say it isnt right that the game is fair as they should have an advantage.

tournaments of skill are decided before they start unless they are made fair.

What you said here is of the utmost importance. There is a point where there is no difference between two players in skill level - for example the difference of 6 points like what is stated above.

Many tournament directors at their discretion have a "fudge factor" built into their events that allow players slightly over the cap to participate. Add a players meeting to that to decide whether or not to allow participants slightly over the cap & you have no problems.

There should be no incentive at all for a 605 to purposely drop to under 600 if the td is doing his/her job correctly.

CSI even has a 10 point individual rating cushion in place for their tournaments.

As a 617 player I agree with all of these posts. I see tournaments posted all the time that I can't enter but, and I may be an outlier here, I would rather be able to enter with the requirement to give weight.

Personally, I think if you're going to use a cap based on FR then you should absolutely use the FR system to setup the races. The issue with that is, with short races someone is going to have an edge. I think the simple solution is to set the race based on your rating. This doesn't mean use the FR app to set the race, but rather set a scale something like 600-650 has to go to 5, 550 to 599 goes to 4, 500 to 549 goes to 3, etc. I have seen this before but it would/could give players an edge, depending on what side of the scale they are on. In the end, unless you have the time to have a few long races, someone is going to get the short end of the stick.

 

[GideonF]

As a 617 player I agree with all of these posts. I see tournaments posted all the time that I can't enter but, and I may be an outlier here, I would rather be able to enter with the requirement to give weight.

Personally, I think if you're going to use a cap based on FR then you should absolutely use the FR system to setup the races. The issue with that is, with short races someone is going to have an edge. I think the simple solution is to set the race based on your rating. This doesn't mean use the FR app to set the race, but rather set a scale something like 600-650 has to go to 5, 550 to 599 goes to 4, 500 to 549 goes to 3, etc. I have seen this before but it would/could give players an edge, depending on what side of the scale they are on. In the end, unless you have the time to have a few long races, someone is going to get the short end of the stick.

You don’t need the app to set the race. You can just say a Fargo gap of 40 or 50 (or whatever) is a one game spot, 80 is two etc. The bracket should have the Fargo on it so the player just says “I’m a 550, I’m playing a 605, I get one game)”.

The tiered approach causes the same problem of incentives for marginal players. A 605 still has an incentive to drop to 599. Also, strict tiers can lead to a 605 spotting a 595, yet a 550 gets no spot from a 599. You can slightly fix the first problem by having fixed tiers and a rule that there is no spot if the players are within a certain Fargo gap (eg 20 points) so a 595 gets no spot from a 605. But still this is not as good as a pure Fargo gap spot.

 

[Chili Palmer]

You don’t need the app to set the race. You can just say a Fargo gap of 40 or 50 (or whatever) is a one game spot, 80 is two etc. The bracket should have the Fargo on it so the player just says “I’m a 550, I’m playing a 605, I get one game)”.

The tiered approach causes the same problem of incentives for marginal players. A 605 still has an incentive to drop to 599. Also, strict tiers can lead to a 605 spotting a 595, yet a 550 gets no spot from a 599. You can slightly fix the first problem by having fixed tiers and a rule that there is no spot if the players are within a certain Fargo gap (eg 20 points) so a 595 gets no spot from a 605. But still this is not as good as a pure Fargo gap spot.

That's an even better solution...

 

[Rocket354]

CSI even has a 10 point individual rating cushion in place for their tournaments.

They are very strict, though. If they have a cap then you have to be at or under the cap when you register. The cushion is only if your score changes after registration.

Any tournament other than an open one will have to in some way draw a line in the sand and it will let someone in who is hardly different from someone it excludes, or at least treats unfairly. Even ranges can be annoying. I play in some "40-pts per game" tournaments, and it is somewhat annoying to be 39 points below someone and have to play them even. I'd rather just play open than handicapped sometimes.

 

[Fore Rail]

They are very strict, though. If they have a cap then you have to be at or under the cap when you register. The cushion is only if your score changes after registration.

Any tournament other than an open one will have to in some way draw a line in the sand and it will let someone in who is hardly different from someone it excludes, or at least treats unfairly. Even ranges can be annoying. I play in some "40-pts per game" tournaments, and it is somewhat annoying to be 39 points below someone and have to play them even. I'd rather just play open than handicapped sometimes.

The only real cap though is the 720 or 660 Fargo Ratings.