8 ball hill-hill: combo leaves a straight-in 1, what now?

ryanshea

ryanshea

Dreamer of dreams
This came up in a hill-hill 8 ball match and I spent an uncomfortable amount of time scratching my head over it. I'm solids.
The 3 ball really only goes short side or all the way back up table, and I was dead straight on the combination. Nothing else looked good, so I went for the combo hoping beyond hope to have an angle on the 1 to move the cue ball afterward. That didn't happen. I was pretty much dead straight on the 1.
That's where the "now what" came in. My idea was to cut the 3 so it ended up in front of the 8. Bad idea for a few reasons: the cut has to be precise, the speed control has to be perfect, and it still wouldn't have been a very safe shot even if I executed it. I lost the match.
So assuming you started with the combo and ended up with a straight-in 1 ball, what would you have done from there?
Diagram below made with a free tool I'm building, happy to share the link if anyone is curious.
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I would shoot the 3 straight on and leave the cue ball toward the end rail so they would only have a difficult bank shot on the 8. The hope is they would leave an open shot on the 3.
 

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How accurate are you with a stop shot on the 3 at that distance? If you are deadly accurate, with an ever-so-slight angle you can pin the CB against the 8-ball at an unfortunate angle, such that banking the 8 into the upper right is not possible. Not the answer to the exact question you asked, but that's an alternative to shooting the 1-2 combo.

Disclaimer: I am not an instructor and I would go for it as I described then screw it up, selling out the 8. :LOL:
 
Yeah, I like that idea of leaving the cue ball closer to the center diamond on the short rail. Way better than what I tried. Cue ball "on" the 8 feels difficult to avoid selling out for me. Another idea a guy on my league said is that he would not sink the 2, but rather go rail first to try to snooker behind the 2, which I felt was very creative.
 
ryanshea said:
Yeah, I like that idea of leaving the cue ball closer to the center diamond on the short rail. Way better than what I tried. Cue ball "on" the 8 feels difficult to avoid selling out for me. Another idea a guy on my league said is that he would not sink the 2, but rather go rail first to try to snooker behind the 2, which I felt was very creative.
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If I were playing safe I would kick off the right end rail to hit the two on the bottom side, soft and then you have the 2 and 1 to hide behind. You have to hit the 2 on the side closer to the bottom long rail.
 
Yeah, I think if I had smartly skipped the combo - yes the kick could work if I'm feeling confident in my kicks, but I also could have just let it fly to bring the cue ball back down toward the 3/8, which fixes my combo problem. The position window is actually kinda huge to keep him from a direct hit on the 8, although it's not tough to re-safe me kicking off the short rail on the 8.
 
JeremiahGage said:
I would shoot the 3 straight on and leave the cue ball toward the end rail so they would only have a difficult bank shot on the 8. The hope is they would leave an open shot on the 3.
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NAI, but I think Mr. Gage has the right idea, as kicking to either side of the combo (end-cushion first, or long-cushion first) have more potential for leaving a look on the 8--skill dependent, of course.

More complicated, but with a decent feel for the speed of the table, there is also the option to thin the 1, and bring the cue ball back in the upper-right quadrant, aiming to have the 3 eclipsing the 8. There's a lot of target area to leave it in and any look on the 8 would be for bank to side or corner, and maybe the cut past the 2, although if the 2 were undisturbed by the cut on the 1, then it would remain a blocker.
 
JeremiahGage said:
I would shoot the 3 straight on and leave the cue ball toward the end rail so they would only have a difficult bank shot on the 8. The hope is they would leave an open shot on the 3.
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Another safe on the first shot would be to roll very softly off the right side of the 3 to leave the 3 blocking a full hit on the 8.
sixpack said:
If I were playing safe I would kick off the right end rail to hit the two on the bottom side, soft and then you have the 2 and 1 to hide behind. You have to hit the 2 on the side closer to the bottom long rail.
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The hit might be surer if you play two cushions out of the upper-right corner to the 2 ball. I think that's a larger target. The corner-5 or the parallel-shift system could work.

Another possibility on the first shot is to come off the left side of the one ball -- almost a cross-corner bank -- to leave the cue ball in the upper left corner of the table, maybe fully snookered by the 3 ball.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Another safe on the first shot would be to roll very softly off the right side of the 3 to leave the 3 blocking a full hit on the 8.

The hit might be surer if you play two cushions out of the upper-right corner to the 2 ball. I think that's a larger target. The corner-5 or the parallel-shift system could work.

Another possibility on the first shot is to come off the left side of the one ball -- almost a cross-corner bank -- to leave the cue ball in the upper left corner of the table, maybe fully snookered by the 3 ball.
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Good points.

I feel like leaving them on the same end as the 8-ball in your first and third options leaves a higher probability for them to get safe after kicking at the 8 ball for an easy hit because the balls up table are a combo that I wouldn't want to shoot from the end rail so it would lead to a safety battle where the 3 would probably not be blocking the 8 anymore.

I like the 2 rail kick, I'll have to try that one in that situation.

The advantage to the kick behind the 2 either way is that you can move the 2 out from behind the one and still be safe giving you an easy out with ball in hand and more options if they make a hit on the 8.
 
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If the 8 didn't go I wouldn't have made the 1.

Make the combo freeing up the 1.

Then play safe on the 1 positioning the cue ball where your opponent is only looking at your 3 ball.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
The hit might be surer if you play two cushions out of the upper-right corner to the 2 ball. I think that's a larger target. The corner-5 or the parallel-shift system could work.

Another possibility on the first shot is to come off the left side of the one ball -- almost a cross-corner bank -- to leave the cue ball in the upper left corner of the table, maybe fully snookered by the 3 ball.

@sixpack said
I like the 2 rail kick, I'll have to try that one in that situat
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the 2 rail kick is the shot for me
now he has a touchy kick to stay in the game and will probably leave you a chance run out
coming off the left on the 1 if you are not comfortable with the kick i would try to get the cue ball on the upper side rail
high enough to use the 3 as a blocker so he has no shot on the 8
after his kick you should have a shot
 
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Fore Rail said:
If the 8 didn't go I wouldn't have made the 1.

Make the combo freeing up the 1.

Then play safe on the 1 positioning the cue ball where your opponent is only looking at your 3 ball.
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Yep.

You have to separate the 1/2 or you're just gonna have to deal with it later when it won't be as straight forward and you likely won't have the 3 to hide behind...
 
I like making the combo, then thinning off of the 1 to come uptable where the 3 is blocking the 8. If I'm feeling aggressive, I might have tried to draw into the 3/8 on the 1 ball shot.
Another option would be a soft kick into the 2, you're pretty likely to be behind the 1 or 2, but if you tie them up you still have issues.

I like the look of your tool! Please share the link. :)
 
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This seems like a banger shot, but actually I'm thinking it is pretty good. You can't predict very well where the 1/2 end up, but solving the problem combo and a pretty reliable safe. In this example the 1 ended up in a place that'd make the resafe pretty difficult. For me the 2-rail kick, especially given that speed and spin are so sensitive (and let's be honest, hill hill puts the pressure on) I don't love. This other kick after the combo is what the guy on my league was suggesting.
 

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ryanshea said:
This came up in a hill-hill 8 ball match and I spent an uncomfortable amount of time scratching my head over it. I'm solids.
The 3 ball really only goes short side or all the way back up table, and I was dead straight on the combination. Nothing else looked good, so I went for the combo hoping beyond hope to have an angle on the 1 to move the cue ball afterward. That didn't happen. I was pretty much dead straight on the 1.
That's where the "now what" came in. My idea was to cut the 3 so it ended up in front of the 8. Bad idea for a few reasons: the cut has to be precise, the speed control has to be perfect, and it still wouldn't have been a very safe shot even if I executed it. I lost the match.
So assuming you started with the combo and ended up with a straight-in 1 ball, what would you have done from there?
Diagram below made with a free tool I'm building, happy to share the link if anyone is curious.View attachment 942704View attachment 942705
Click to expand...
There are situations that I had to draw shots as like in the diagram. I have done something like a long draw to carom back to the 3 to move it. And more likely end up the 3 close to either corner pockets. Although there is a risk of pocketing the 8 if your draw ain't that straight.
 
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Depending on the exact limit where the 8 ball can be pocketed into the bottom left corner (3 balls exact position is hard to judge from the image), I'd probably go for something like this. Thin the 1 ball trying to land into the "safe area" where the 8 ball can only be either banked or kicked into a pocket, with no super easy counter safeties, considering that solids have two balls left on the table across both ends of it.

Best case scenario you get a full on safety or leave a very thin cut, and the opponent has to either kick or thin at the 8, most likely leaving you with either an open shot or another safety attempt afterwards. With good aim and angle judgement you shouldn't scratch, and the pace isn't too hard to control either with such a large zone.
 
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