Break Box 2022 US Open 9 Ball

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... On the other hand we don't want to see the game become like straight pool, where the break becomes a liability and they start playing safety breaks after getting a few racks up to help protect their lead. ...
That concern is addressed by the requirement to break forcefully (or by 3-point rules).

... Personally I think a 27% BNR stat is just fine. ...
I agree. Anything from 1/4 to 1/3 of the games sounds about right. And that would be for the aggregate of a bunch of matches. The guys finishing at the top of the events would often be doing better than that.

... I am concerned, however, about the breaker not having any edge at all. I wonder if that is due to the high frequency of scratches by cutting the rack so much.
I just wrote this in the previous post: It's also worth remembering that the overall 50% figure for games won by the breaker came from guys who won the matches, at 59%, and guys who lost the matches, at 39%. I.e., some of the players did have an edge.

And, yes, scratches on the break were quite high for this event, probably at or near the top for the events I have tracked. 24 of the 223 games were fouled on the break (10.8%) The breaker won just 2 of those 24 games, so if he had won half (12) instead of 2, it would have added 10 the the count for breaker won game, taking that stat to 55% instead of 50%. The matches I tracked for the 2021 International Open, with similar equipment and rules, had a 6.6% foul rate on the break and an overall 51% breaker-won rate. But they were contending with a 3-point rule, which causes a lot of game losses for the breaker.
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, but note that the DCC used a break box only in 2019 and 2020. Before that (I checked back to 2012), and again in 2022, it was break from anywhere behind the line.

I was there in 2019. They also used the Accu Rack template. The break box seemed smaller than the one Matchroom just used. I watched SVB run a 6 pack. With the template, this format is fine. Hand racking is not so great for this format, and changing from template to
hand rack mid event is utterly absurd.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I was there in 2019. They also used the Accu Rack template. The break box seemed smaller than the one Matchroom just used. I watched SVB run a 6 pack. With the template, this format is fine. Hand racking is not so great for this format, and changing from template to
hand rack mid event is utterly absurd.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
Yes, the DCC switched to a template and a break box for 2019. They stuck with the template for both 2020 and 2022, but switched back to no break box for 2022. My notes say the box in 2019 and 2020 was 9" to each side of the center string, whereas I believe the one in this recent Euro Open was about 8" to each side of center.

I agree with what you say about templates vs. triangles. And Emily Frazer of Matchroom has indicated that they are likely to stick with templates throughout the event for the upcoming US Open.
 

Mich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the magic rack used throughout the whole tournament is the only fair way to use the break box. different racker can change the outcome of a good break. if we are looking for the perfect break lets be sure all balls are frozen.
If I recall, Emily said they might explore using the Template for the whole US Open including the Knock Out Rounds
 

Vahmurka

...and I get all da rolls
Silver Member
Seems my post from EO2022 thread is relevant here: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/new-break-rule-for-european-open.545195/post-7333861
A secret break format, several known types drawn randomly and revealed just a day before the event.

(Of course they'd better play 10-Ball, standard rules (call shot call safe even better), and no need to change everything back and forth. I'm talking this from day 1 since Matchroom were back to pool. But who cares)
 

westcoast

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stu brings up a good point, there is a balance between too easy and too tough with break rules. We don't want to see a wired ball, soft break, and easy layouts with the entire matches and tournaments coming down to who can control the 1 on the break the best. On the other hand we don't want to see the game become like straight pool, where the break becomes a liability and they start playing safety breaks after getting a few racks up to help protect their lead.

Where we differ, and where we all will differ, is where each of us feels that balance should be.

Personally I think a 27% BNR stat is just fine. That's how it was for many years prior to template racks. I remember when 30% BNR was reserved for tournament winners, and other pros were at 20%. I also like the more strategic play and post rack challenges. I hated watching 9 ball become about mastering the opening break and then mopping up open layouts.

I am concerned, however, about the breaker not having any edge at all. I wonder if that is due to the high frequency of scratches by cutting the rack so much.

I remember that Pat Flemming did some stats in the 90s and showed that the breaker had a very small advantage, I want to say it was in the low 50% range. No one believed it but it was over many, many racks of pool analyzed. But those were head on breaks where scratches were rare. That means not every dry break will result in a loss. With a higher number of scratches I can see how the number of losses due to a scratch could equalize the number of successful breaks.

My big fear is that matches come down to who gets lucky enough to dodge scratches on these wild cut breaks.

I am still happy to see this change. I think it's a needed adjustment to a game that had become too break-heavy. I think we give the pros a few tournaments to adjust and see if they can alter their run out percentages or reduce their scratches a bit. If so this might be spot on. And while I hate tinkering with the game, I personally feel this change is many years overdue.

As for 10 ball, that break is more solved than 9 on the spot 9 ball. I thought that was a known thing. 10 ball hasn't been considered harder than 9 ball for the top players for many years because with templates and a pop break they average 2 balls a break with ridiculous control over the spreads. No, we have to stick to 9 ball.

Just my humble opinion of course.
I wonder if At Large has stats indicating whether 10 ball is as easy as 9 ball for elite pros.

I understand that many pros have somewhat mastered making 1 or 2 of the balls behind the 1 in the side pockets, but does that lead to a higher runout % than 9 ball?

I also wonder if requiring a wooden rack rather than a template would help solve that problem in 10 ball
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I wonder if At Large has stats indicating whether 10 ball is as easy as 9 ball for elite pros. ...
Dr. Dave has extracted 3 stats from lots of my stats threads and posted them in tables (1 each for 8-Ball, 9-Ball, and 10-Ball) on his website: https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/break/stats/

I would caution you that valid comparisons depend on having the same (or highlly similar) conditions (equipment and rules) and skill levels.
 
Top