Why different shaft diameters for different games?

[Rocket354]

I thought I understood why a snooker player would have a smaller shaft diameter (typically 8.5-9.5mm) than American pool players (typically 11.75-13). But when thinking about it more, why wouldn't a snooker-sized shaft work for pool? What is actually gained, in either direction?

More perplexingly to me is that apparently 10.5mm is the preferred size for Chinese 8-ball, which uses the same sized balls and same sized table as American pool. Why wouldn't the desired shafts be the same size? And, since Chinese 8-ball is a more recent development, what lead to this "new' shaft size? (Just marketing??)

I watched the below "what's in the bag" video with Chris Melling who seems to play everything, and even he uses smaller shafts for Snooker/English pool than for American pool, and then talks about concerns with the 10.5 shaft (vs the 11.8) starting at about the 6:54 mark, eventually saying "if the shaft's thinner, then you've got to be more accurate."

So are the differences in shaft sizes between the games just traditional wisdom, or is there actual merit to it all?

 

[Black-Balled]

You can run in boots but they aren't the best choice for the activity.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

"if the shaft's thinner, then you've got to be more accurate."

False.

So are the differences in shaft sizes between the games just traditional wisdom, or is there actual merit to it all?

Mostly traditional nonsense - but there's some merit to smaller tips no matter what game: they allow you to see more precisely where you're hitting the CB.

I've used a 9..5-10mm tip playing pool for more than 30 years.

pj
chgo

 

[Stew boo]

The smaller the shaft, the more spin it will put on the cue ball when you hit it off center. That's why some people will say you have to be more accurate because it's easier to put unintentional spin on the ball. As for why you would play with different shafts depending on the game, it's because in certain games you tend to spin the ball more like in one pocket. Personally I play with a thinner shaft for one pocket and a thicker one for 9 ball

 

[Greg M]

More perplexingly to me is that apparently 10.5mm is the preferred size for Chinese 8-ball, which uses the same sized balls and same sized table as American pool. Why wouldn't the desired shafts be the same size?

Could it be the taper of the cues? Chinese eight-ball cues are essentially thicker-tipped snooker cues that may be a little heavier, but most have conical tapers. I know Gareth Potts' own brand of cue has an 11.5mm tip, which is the widest I've seen.

As a rule, the thinner the tip in relation to cue ball size, the more likely you're going to play with unwanted side.

I don't like using anything over 10mm for any cue sport. I'm not comfortable with the American pool cue tip sizes and I generally use my snooker cue for the 2 1/4" balls. I use 8.4mm and an 8.8mm for English pool, and 9.5mm for snooker and American pool. I'll also use my break cue for American pool from time to time, but not often at all.

 

[hang-the-9]

This was asked before I think, maybe not here. Many Chinese 8 ball players grew up with snooker or UK 8 ball where they use the thinner shafts, so the smaller shaft diameter in that game is 90% likely simply from player preference rather than some technical "better" shaft size for the game. A thin shaft for normal pool games to me feels very fragile and hard to control with any power.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

yeah no, lot less guess work when you play with a tree trunk

 

[pt109]

The problem, for me, is not unwanted side, but unwanted massé.
I use a 12 mm for pool, a 10.4 for snooker….this allows me to aim about the same way at each game.
If I used a British ash cue with a British taper, I would use a 9 mm for snooker.
I use an 11.5 for 3- cushion.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The smaller the shaft, the more spin it will put on the cue ball when you hit it off center.

…the thinner the tip in relation to cue ball size, the more likely you're going to play with unwanted side.

I can see how it seems this way, but these are both mistaken. Different tip shapes may result in tiny differences - not tip sizes.

pj
chgo

 

[Rocket354]

This was asked before I think, maybe not here. Many Chinese 8 ball players grew up with snooker or UK 8 ball where they use the thinner shafts, so the smaller shaft diameter in that game is 90% likely simply from player preference rather than some technical "better" shaft size for the game. A thin shaft for normal pool games to me feels very fragile and hard to control with any power.

Thanks for this reply. I did not want this thread to just become another argument over whether smaller shafts give more spin. Quoting Melling above was my way of saying "even he doesn't seem to know."

To your last point, might carbon fiber alleviate that concern? If it really is "feel" concern then CF shafts could allow for a firmer, more stout hit on a smaller shaft. Maybe that is where 10.5 came from: it retains the feel on the bigger balls while allowing for better visibility/precision.

 

[gregcantrall]

The weight of the balls is a factor. Back in the day, I carried a little bit fatter shaft to use with the oversize cueball often found on the coin op tables. The taper of the Snooker cue makes for a solid hit. The pro taper of the pool cue makes the flex at impact a slight factor. Cole Dixon liked to compare it to the flex of the pole in the pole vault. Obviously on a micro scale.

 

[The_JV]

I can see how it seems this way, but these are both mistaken. Different tip shapes may result in tiny differences - not tip sizes.

10 vs 13...: Assume a flat tip on both. Are you claiming that you need to shift both tips equally to produce the same amount of english..?

 

[gregcantrall]

a firmer, more stout hit

Cole told me that hit was preferred for straight pool. A game that short precision shape was key. He wanted a little flex in the shaft playing rotation games. Games that often required around the table shape. Of course having the flex and being able to control it are not the same. I remember getting Bad vibes striking the punkin cueball with my smaller shaft. Like Oddball in Hogan's Heros.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

I intentionally chalk like mike de chain when playing 8-9-10 ball

And I’ll chalk like a 3c player when playing 1pkt

 

[Rocket354]

The weight of the balls is a factor. Back in the day, I carried a little bit fatter shaft to use with the oversize cueball often found on the coin op tables. The taper of the Snooker cue makes for a solid hit. The pro taper of the pool cue makes the flex at impact a slight factor. Cole Dixon liked to compare it to the flex of the pole in the pole vault. Obviously on a micro scale.

This goes along with what I'm thinking about the matter. Essentially, players like to have a cue that has a certain feel to it. With wood shafts, the smaller the shaft the whippier the feel. And thus, 13mm was standard, and shafts below 12.5mm were relatively rare. It took the low-deflection renaissance for even smaller shafts to be viable/desireable, but it never dropped below about 11.8mm as a standard size, and even those were uncommon amongst all pool players -- I remember exactly one guy in my league 15 yrs ago who used a Z2. I tried some of the small-diameter LD shafts back then and couldn't stand them; it was like playing pool with a wet noodle.

But now with CF it seems the standard tip size has shrank. 12.4/12.5 seems standard, 12.9 is now quite big, and 11.8 is quite common. With the increased stiffness of CF I can see how the same feel has been retained compared to wood, but now with a smaller shaft. The sizes parallel the traditional sizes for marketing purposes, but it seems pool players as a whole have taken a step downward in shaft diameters. If bigger sizes were really better that wouldn't have happened. So what's important is: how can someone play their best while retaining the feel? And smaller shafts allow for better cue ball visibility and tip placement precision; that is, they allow someone to play better.

Snooker with its smaller balls can retain a certain firmness of hit with a smaller shaft and so that's why they exist. Pool needs bigger shafts to have a similar feel with its bigger balls. The introduction of Chinese 8-ball was an opportunity to break from traditional sizes and so 10.5mm was introduced and allows for a similarly firm feel to larger wood shafts on the larger pool balls. And that last part isn't just conjecture--I've started playing with a 10.5 and don't find it lacking at all in the firmness/power department.

 

[lakeman77]

The felt on Chinese 8 ball tables is similar to snooker felt, lot of nap, and run-off. I played on one and it required a delicate touch. Hit the ball too hard, it rattled in the pocket, too soft and it ran off line. So maybe the thinner shafts help ?????

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Assume a flat tip on both.

Imagine concave tips if you want. I’ll stick with reality: tips curved at least enough to add spin without hitting on the tip’s edge.

pj
chgo

 

[DeeDeeCues]

10 vs 13...: Assume a flat tip on both. Are you claiming that you need to shift both tips equally to produce the same amount of english..?

With a flat tip you can't generate spin. You might when the edge finally moves off center by the radius of the tip, but the sharp edge will not react like a radius.

PJ is correct, if the tip dome radius is the same, you move the same amount regardless of the tip diameter.

 

[Stew boo]

I can see how it seems this way, but these are both mistaken. Different tip shapes may result in tiny differences - not tip sizes.

pj
chgo

It's an easy test to do, take a large and small diameter shaft and hit the same point on the cue ball while aiming at a specific point on the rail with side spin using the same speed. You will notice the smaller shafts causes the cue ball to go more left or right when it hits the rail.

Stu
Scarbro

 

[mr3cushion]

False.


Mostly traditional nonsense - but there's some merit to smaller tips no matter what game: they allow you to see more precisely where you're hitting the CB, no matter what the game.

I've used a 9..5-10mm tip playing pool for more than 30 years.

pj
chgo

So, You advocate playing 3C with a 9.5-10mm tip? The smallest tips used in 'Carom' billiards is11.5 normally.