Does the type of joint really affect the value of a cue that much?

[MitchAlsup]

For the record, I only like wood-wood joints
For the record, all my cues are Uni-lock--but I do not believe that the kind of joint maters one whit.

 

[The Old Jaybird]

so my Schons and Joss cues with SS joints are now worthless junk????

But my Schmelke with a 3/8 x 10 wood to wood joint is a priceless keeper??

 

[Thecoats]

Metal joints are becoming more rare. Haven't had anyone ask for one in ages.

Oops, I quoted the wrong post.

Sorry
-don

 

[Thecoats]

SS joints are as dead as dinosaurs. I agree, they won't sell today, unless to an old school collector.

I respect your opinion, but disagree with this statement. Have you played with a Tascarella, Tim Scruggs, Black Boar or Schon with a steal joint? All these cues play great and are still very relevant in the cue sales market.

Thanks
-don

 

[Chopdoc]

Putting the cue butt down while waiting or as it was very common back in the day (and still a little now) to bang the cue on the floor to praise a good shot, the bumper dampened that noise.

Well that's settled! LOL!

I think I had seen that and forgot.

Same idea/point anyway.

 

[skor]

I respect your opinion, but disagree with this statement. Have you played with a Tascarella, Tim Scruggs, Black Boar or Schon with a steal joint? All these cues play great and are still very relevant in the cue sales market.

Thanks
-don

It is sad that a lot of cue makers deserted the good old SS 5/16x14, I like that joint, but I also like the 3/8x10 joint.
I guess that with the introduction of radial and modified 3/8x10 and better equipment most of the wooden threads issues were gone so the transfer made sense.
The piloted joint is mostly obsolete as after market shaft have such a tiny pilot to “fit them all” thst the whole joint is obsolete.

 

[Bavafongoul]

The type of joint can, but not always, affect the demand and interest in a cue.
The inference being the higher the demand and interest, the better is the price.

A Balabushka cue will command a admittedly high price and everyone knows
George loved to use 5/16x14 piloted steel joints & Cortland linen #9 cue wraps.

His cues are in high demand as are Szamboti pool cues, Gus & Barry. Gus also
mainly used 5/16x14 joints and Barry mostly uses the same joint. It is still popular.

Can a joint increase the demand and value of a pool cue? Absolutely and anyone
thinking otherwise hasn’t considered historical cue sales or even the current trend.

Rarity and scarcity are the key elements in determining the value of a cue, even if
there’s low interest that can be confused with demand. Expensive cue have a much
smaller financial audience. This also applies to a cue’s appeal when it’s priced right.

Most folks know I am a fan of flat ivory joints. Despite that over a dozen states have
banned ivory, the majority of our country still allows ivory sales. Cues with ivory joints
are declining in use by cue makers to avoid legal issues fulfilling orders for buyers in
selected states. However, there’s still a substantial population of cues already made.

Joel Hercek is my favorite cue maker and I’ve been fortunate to talk with him about his
cue making. He knew I was his #1 fan and was so generous with his time. I told him
about my frustrating experience trying to find one of his cues that coincided in specs
with my other cues. Joel explained why saying he’s only made a limited number of cues
with the joint, shafts and weight I want and made a lot more cues with piloted ivory joints.

A George Balabushka ivory joint is rare and highly prized by collector worth big bucks.
Szamboti cues with ivory joints are more common but the value increase also coincides.
Joel Hercek cues are the same. I could keep citing cue makers but the point is deceased
cue makers and currently active ones can build cues that have added value because of
the design of the cue’s anatomy. Of course, a cue maker’s reputation is a big factor and
so does the cue maker’s wait list and annual production. There are lots of factors involved.

A 5/16x14 steel joint does not limit or lower the value of a cue. An ivory joint cue can, but
not necessarily, increase a cue’s value but it certainly shouldn’t diminish it. Here’s the real
bottomline. If you buy a pool cue worrying about how much you could sell it for later on,
you likely are buying the wrong cue. Flipping cues is like flipping coins. Sometimes you’ll
guess right and other times be dead wrong. With cues, that can become a expensive mistake.

Pool cues are a horrible investment but if you buy right, you’ll get to play with a great pool cue
and you can eventually, or your heirs could, recover what you paid for the cue by selling it. If
there was any loss, it’d be minuscule compared with most other cue sales. Just take care of
that cue keeping it pristine and spend as much as you can afford to get the best cue possible.

I have enough cues to leave a nice one to all of my children and grandkids. Hopefully, they’d
pass it along in time just as I hope would happen to my collection of guns and knives. I have a
bunch of handguns but two special rifles (1903A1 Springfield sporterized & 1948 Winchester 94).

Back to pool cue value and cue joints. Remember this…..nothing in life, no outcome is assured.
People may joking refer to how about death or taxes. I’m referring to pool cues and investments.

If you buy a pool cue expecting to make a profit, you had better be buying low and right or else
you’ll be singing the blues. Pool cues are not a smart investment vehicle & cue joints can be a factor.

 

[vintagecollectibles831]

the joint has no effect on how a cue hits/plays. This has been covered a lot on here. Blind tests have shown it to be true. There ARE factors that effect/change how a cue hits but joint type isn't one of them.

Why do Wood to Wood joints have such a Softer hit then? Mcdermott for example.

 

[vintagecollectibles831]

You can detect some of the same kind of changes by just removing a bumper. This would be more dramatic on a cue with a big bumper like McDermott A, B, C, and D series. Those are large and even have a rubber tenon that inserts into the butt cap. By contrast the early Meucci cues had a little "pill" bumper and less effect.

If I remember correctly rubber bumpers were originally advertised as sound dampers in old Brunswick catalogs, so the notion predates the Limbsaver by a number of decades.

I can relate to your story, an inappropriate sound or feeling can be distracting. It can drive you nuts.

You might swear it's the ferrule when it's the bumper, screw, or butt cap. Kind of like on a car or motorcycle when you swear the problem is the front end and it turns out to be the rear.

Have you ever hit with a ferruless shaft? Seems the Ferrule is a really huge dampener too. The shorter the ferrule, the harder the hit? But with no ferrule at all, the hit is super hard. I hated it, on one occasion that I tried a ferruless shaft. I see a lot of players love the hit too. A lot of players also love the hit of a cue with no bumper.

 

[vintagecollectibles831]

True. It wasn't said outright in the advertising and we have discussed that here before.

Lol, that has always been my assumption. Dampening of the hit never even came to mind, when thinking of rubber bumpers. I always thought that their main purpose was to protect the end of the butt, lol.

 

[classiccues]

Only to the buyer. All the theories on cue hitting, piloted steel being "dead". This is all just opinions. If the buyer likes 3/8 flat faced, for whatever his/her belief, then they will probably not like a steel jointed cue, so to them, it is a detriment and vice versa. Everything someone says regarding hit, is an opinion.
Example: I like iv. ferrules, 5/16-14 piloted joints, iv or steel, and they hit the best. See this is my opinion. That is the kind of cue "I" like. So at the end of the day, only the buyer's opinion, is going to make the cue more or less valuable.
That is my opinion.
JV

 

[Chopdoc]

so my Schons and Joss cues with SS joints are now worthless junk????

But my Schmelke with a 3/8 x 10 wood to wood joint is a priceless keeper??

No worries. I'll give you .50c on the dollar to help you get out from under those Joss and Schon cues. I'm here to help.

Hang on to the Schmelke.

 

[Chopdoc]

A 5/16x14 steel joint does not limit or lower the value of a cue.

Thank you!

Next time put that at the top. It took half a cup of coffee to find it, but therecwas bo was I was not going to read your post. LOL!

 

[Chopdoc]

Only to the buyer. All the theories on cue hitting, piloted steel being "dead". This is all just opinions. If the buyer likes 3/8 flat faced, for whatever his/her belief, then they will probably not like a steel jointed cue, so to them, it is a detriment and vice versa. Everything someone says regarding hit, is an opinion.
Example: I like iv. ferrules, 5/16-14 piloted joints, iv or steel, and they hit the best. See this is my opinion. That is the kind of cue "I" like. So at the end of the day, only the buyer's opinion, is going to make the cue more or less valuable.
That is my opinion.
JV

All very valid opinions.

But how many younger guys favor, and buy, cues with the "old school" joints.

Is the market for them really changing?

I don't know. Seems like it might be.

That does not devalue well established collectable cues I think. But what about new cues entering the market? What about younger players and new playing cues?

 

[classiccues]

But how many younger guys favor, and buy, cues with the "old school" joints.

Is the market for them really changing?

I don't know. Seems like it might be.

That does not devalue well established collectable cues I think. But what about new cues entering the market? What about younger players and new playing cues?

First... the smart ones
Second.. Market is always changing
Younger players are being brainwashed, much in the same way we were in the 70's and 80's.
Once you get in their heads that this joint is better, this shaft is better, this tip is better, this chalk is better etc...
It all becomes excuses to why they miss, so naturally the next in line is better.
Once you get to a certain level, I think the cue doesn't matter as much. I think SVB could play easily with any cue.

JV

 

[garczar]

Certain joints are more favorable then others. With all these LD shafts uncommon/weird joints are not going to sell as well.

My last cue i wanted a 5/16x14 thread because i already had predator shafts that size.

This is very true but the joint still has little-to-zero effect on how a cue plays/feels. If they re-did that test done yrs ago with a bunch of today's available joints the results would be the same: very few players could tell what the joint was just by playing with it. WAY too many factors that DO make a difference like tip/ferrule/taper. I'm talking about wood cues but same thing would happen with cf, you couldn't tell the joint by the hit. Some of these pool 'old wive's tales' still hang on. I remember when people thought Meucci's spun whitey more because the shaft was flexible. Complete bullshit but some still believe it. Whatever.

 

[vintagecollectibles831]

No worries. I'll give you .50c on the dollar to help you get out from under those Joss and Schon cues. I'm here to help.

Hang on to the Schmelke.

I am not sure if newer Joss cues hold their value, at 50 cents on the dollar. Does not help that they just look so generic looking, in my opinion. I feel like I am looking at a newer DP cue, every time I see a newer Joss. It is that low grade Curly Maple that really bugs me.

 

[Chopdoc]

First... the smart ones
Second.. Market is always changing
Younger players are being brainwashed, much in the same way we were in the 70's and 80's.
Once you get in their heads that this joint is better, this shaft is better, this tip is better, this chalk is better etc...
It all becomes excuses to why they miss, so naturally the next in line is better.
Once you get to a certain level, I think the cue doesn't matter as much. I think SVB could play easily with any cue.

JV

I guess the old saying holds true.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

"Brainwashing". Yeah. One person's brainwashing is a another person's marketing.

Yes, as the skill increases, the cue matters less. But the masses will remain nowhere near the highest skill level. It's a bell shaped curve, and a right skewed distribution.

 

[Chopdoc]

I am not sure if newer Joss cues hold their value, at 50 cents on the dollar. Does not help that they just look so generic looking, in my opinion. I feel like I am looking at a newer DP cue, every time I see a newer Joss. It is that low grade Curly Maple that really bugs me.

Yeah, we were not talking about new Joss cues. I don't buy any of those. I wouldn't pass up a bargain though.

 

[vintagecollectibles831]

Yeah, we were not talking about new Joss cues. I don't buy any of those. I wouldn't pass up a bargain though.

Gosh, even the very well made Joss cues, with highly figured BEM, that were made back in the early 2000's, are hard to sell. I see them sit on the used market, at prices under $300, for ages, unsold.

Even the 80's era Joss cues sell for very little money. There is a nice 4 point 80's Era Joss right now on the market place, that nobody seems to want, at $340. I guess it just takes time to sell anything though.

And, the market on newer Schon cues is not that great either.

I am talking used cues, not new.

Maybe the market is just way too flooded.

I seen a really nice old used Helmstetter go for about a $160, the other day, on auction. I was really surprised it sold so cheap.