Is a long draw shot easier with a 12mm compared to a 13mm or is it purely stroke mechanics? Is there science behind this answer? If a mechanical arm used both cues with the same force, would the cue ball draw back the exact same distance?
Cue Ball Rotation vs Tip Diameter
- Thread starter BarTableMan
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Cue Tip Size and Shape Effects - Dr. Dave Pool Info
Answers to frequently-asked questions about cue tip shape and size effects.
drdavepoolinfo.com
Yes and…. That’s why people will say “a smaller tip is less forgiving but will draw better”. It’s a myth but there’s a reason behind it. The visualization they’re used to for a fat shaft will result in hitting further out when using a skinny shaft. Which in turn either makes them closer to the miscue limit (better action) or past the limit (and they miscue). People don’t always realize you can achieve the same with either shaft but need to have a stronger mental image of where on the curved tip is contacting where on the curved cueball, and not just rely on how far from the center the tree trunk of the cue looks.
That’s really about tip curvature, not size. A 13mm tip and a 10mm tip with the same tip curvature (dime, nickel, etc.), when offset the same distance from center ball will contact the CB in the same place. Two tips the same size but different curvatures will contact the CB in (slightly) different places.
pj
chgo
(About what Matt said above.
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Iron Willies answer would be good for me.
It’s not the sameThat’s really about tip curvature, not size. A 13mm tip and a 10mm tip with the same tip curvature (dime, nickel, etc.), when offset the same distance from center ball will contact the CB in the same place. Two tips the same size but different curvatures will contact the CB in (slightly) different places.
pj
chgo
(About what Matt said above.
The tip is not rock solid, it’s elastic and upon impact it spreads and “grabs” the cue ball.
In fact the shape diameter less matters than most think
Paul_#_
Well-known member
I suppose its part of the miscue but it can mean illegally jumping the ball easier, too.
Once you understand that the contact point is not a point, everything will be clearer
Paul_#_
Well-known member
How's that?
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
It's a patch. When the tip hits the CB it flattens at the contact point. Chalk your tip, hit a CB and look at the missing chalk. It's not a pin point, it's probably the diameter of a grain of rice or even bigger. The balls even deform slightly when colliding. You can put the old "carbon copy" paper between two balls and hit them, the contact point has size to it, not a pin point.
Spheres squish, think of a rubber bouncy ball or a water balloon hitting the table in slow motion.
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There is a whole surface of the tip that compresses and contacts the ball. The wider the tip, the larger the surface that contacts the ball.
Now let’s say that you aim the center of the shaft/tip, 7mm off the center of the CB. A 12mm tip won’t touch the center of the CB while a 13mm tip will, resulting in more spin with smaller diameter tip. To get the same spin, the larger tip diameter need to be aimed further away from the center.
The shape radius of the tip does not makes any difference here unless it’s very hard and doesn’t compress as much.
From this you can also understand that with hard tips you can get a good amount of spin staying closer to the center of the cb resulting in less chance of miscuing and less deflection. Staying closer to the center will also generate more power. But it does require a good stroke.
As P.Johnson has stated, A LOT btw, the difference in the contact patch of various diameters is TINY. You can draw/spin the ball just as much with a 13 as you can an 11. You only use the tip's edge when spinning it, not enough diff. to matter. A long time ago i had a D.Janes Joss with 14mm tips and i could do ANYTHING i needed to with it including long draw shots on that old burlap Mali/Stevens cloth. People WAY overthink this stuff. Find a shaft that feels good in your hand/fingers and just play.
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I used a 14mm for decades and some people called me Monster Stroke.
Paul_#_
Well-known member
The contact point on cue ball is really a patch but is a contact point at object ball
.
The photos below show the patch contact. They look like the cue tip hits cue ball about a tip width to right of center ball.
See Dr Dave's "Amazing Billiards Physics in Super Slow Motion" at Dr Dave video
Going off topic, I'm not sure the patch is relevant to center-ball aiming a cue ball that is very close to object ball. Thinking of cue-ball contact there as a contact point seems fine.
Maybe theoretically - but I doubt that the tip's "contact patch" reaching a millimeter closer to center makes a noticeable difference in the outcome. The vast majority of the tip's force is concentrated at the contact point.
pj <- interesting idea, though
chgo
I
I've always played with hard tips, 13 mm. When I need full table, there's always a mark on the cloth from my follow thru getting low on the cb. Sometimes a foot or more, depending.
Voice of reason among the madness!!
good question for a scientific study. from what I've gathered, pure stroke mechanics is the main key. as far as the size goes, I believe the effect has to do with the contact point and shape of the tip. I've shot with a 12.5mm and 11.5mm recently, one with a PRO/SS tip and one with a Medium tip and I've drawn a full table and half with both. which I find easier drawing was with the PRO/SS tip only because I tend to miscue the medium tip occasionally. had to scuff and chalk the medium tip properly to avoid that.
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