Testing Kicks and Banks on Diamond Brand Tables, and How to Adjust Aiming

dr_dave

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FYI, I just posted a new video that shows how to test a table to determine if kicks and banks go short or long compared to typical pool tables. I also tests new 7’ and 9’ Blue Label Diamond brand tables with new cloth to see how they perform, and he shows how to make aiming adjustments when a table is banking short. Check it out:


Contents:
  • 0:00 - Intro
  • 0:53 - Background
  • 2:31 - 7’ Diamond Kicks
  • 4:01 - 9’ Diamond Kicks
  • 4:45 - 7’ Diamond Banks
  • 6:28 - 9’ Diamond Banks
  • 7:31 - Conclusions
Supporting Resources:
As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
 
Nice job Dr Dave, to a topic near and dear to me:)

Is this really the first time you got to play on Blue labels? Or just the first time you were able to carefully test them? They've been out since 2010.

I'm actually surprised the Blues were that close to true. I wonder what they will be like in 6 months in that same room when the cloth is worn? Was the prior test you did 10 or so years ago on Reds on brand new cloth or worn cloth?

You mentioned at the end you are in dry Colorado. The worst ones I played on were in Tunica Mississippi for the spin-off of the DCC Diamond had for a couple years around 2013. I watched a Banks action match for 3k between Shannon Murphy and Manny Chau, and both players were having the balls bounce off the rails airborne it was so bad. During the main tournament, one of the pros went up to the tournament desk and said his table was bad. I saw Paul Smith (the main Diamond tech) go check the table and of course nothing was wrong with it. I think he just went to appease the player.

I'm used to the Blues at this point. I still don't like them, but I know how to play them.

Also of note, them playing short affects every single shot, not just kicks and banks. They affect position, which is an even bigger issue. Kicks and banks is a good way to test them.

Do you have any comments on the speed off of the cushion, in addition to the angle off the cushion? In my experience, the Diamond cushions (both 7' and 9') bounce harder. I tried putting a number to it with 3d printed stimp-meters a couple years ago, but quickly lost interest as to how difficult it was to get repeatable numbers. As Bob pointed out, the ball also rolls further if you keep repeating the same spot since it lays down the cloth fibers.

Another question... you tested with a dead ball. I fully agree with that for testing purposes. In position play, the CB almost always has spin on it. Do you know (or can theorize) if playing a position route on a Diamond vs a GC would have a larger error or a smaller error when the CB has spin on it, compared to the error in the dead ball bank and kick you tested? Let me rephrase: let's say a 2 rail out of the corner route with low outside. Play the same shot on a Diamond and a GC. Will the CB end up in a much different place, or just an inch apart at the end of the shot?

I still digress, IDK how Diamond came up with these rails, especially the Red label for 20 years. They were out from about 1990 until the redesign in 2010, 20 years! Their slogan "designed by players for players" was a bunch of bs. There is no player alive that liked the Red label cushions when they came out. How that table took hold is still beyond me.
 
dr dave
thanks for the info again
would you expect more drastic short results if you repeated the test in 6 months when the cloth is well worn?
since new cloth tends to make banks go long (i think)
 
I mentioned this in another thread this week. I played on a Diamond 7 and 9 footer at Fat Cats in Asheville, NC last week. Ran my usual kicking and banking tests similar to DrDave. Corner 5 too. Both tables banked true, like my 7-foot Olhausen at home or the Gold Crown at my Pool hall. Tables are likely five years old, cloth somewhat worn.

I had the same result on a 7-ft Diamond in Massachusetts three years ago. Brand new table and cloth. Oddly, I haven’t played on a Diamond that banks short yet. Wonder why.
 
I would've been amazed by any conclusion other than that.

We're in the process of remodeling specifically to put in a table. Given that 99% of the league/tournaments we play is on Diamonds, I would never consider any other brand. Not because they're "better" but because their playing characteristics are so distinctive...
 
Nice job Dr Dave, to a topic near and dear to me:)

I knew you would like it. Thanks.

Is this really the first time you got to play on Blue labels? Or just the first time you were able to carefully test them? They've been out since 2010.

This was the first time I got a chance to test brand new Diamond tables (both sizes) with brand new cloth, and in my town.

I'm actually surprised the Blues were that close to true. I wonder what they will be like in 6 months in that same room when the cloth is worn?

They will definitely play shorter after they are played on and wear in some.

Was the prior test you did 10 or so years ago on Reds on brand new cloth or worn cloth?

The previous test was on a Red Label.

You mentioned at the end you are in dry Colorado. The worst ones I played on were in Tunica Mississippi for the spin-off of the DCC Diamond had for a couple years around 2013. I watched a Banks action match for 3k between Shannon Murphy and Manny Chau, and both players were having the balls bounce off the rails airborne it was so bad. During the main tournament, one of the pros went up to the tournament desk and said his table was bad. I saw Paul Smith (the main Diamond tech) go check the table and of course nothing was wrong with it. I think he just went to appease the player.

I too have played on Diamonds in humid environments with dirty conditions that played shockingly short. I remember thinking that I had to aim a Diamond long on the Diamond table!

Also of note, them playing short affects every single shot, not just kicks and banks. They affect position, which is an even bigger issue. Kicks and banks is a good way to test them.

Good point.

Do you have any comments on the speed off of the cushion, in addition to the angle off the cushion? In my experience, the Diamond cushions (both 7' and 9') bounce harder.

They seemed a little fast to me, but I have not played on the tables yet to know better. Al I had time for was the test shots filmed for the video.

Another question... you tested with a dead ball. I fully agree with that for testing purposes. In position play, the CB almost always has spin on it. Do you know (or can theorize) if playing a position route on a Diamond vs a GC would have a larger error or a smaller error when the CB has spin on it, compared to the error in the dead ball bank and kick you tested? Let me rephrase: let's say a 2 rail out of the corner route with low outside. Play the same shot on a Diamond and a GC. Will the CB end up in a much different place, or just an inch apart at the end of the shot?

Sorry, but I don’t have enough playing experience on Diamonds to give an educated answer.

FYI, I did test 2-rail and 3-rail kicks with running spin on the various tables (including the Red Label Diamond) in my earlier video:


IDK how Diamond came up with these rails, especially the Red label for 20 years. They were out from about 1990 until the redesign in 2010, 20 years! Their slogan "designed by players for players" was a bunch of bs. There is no player alive that liked the Red label cushions when they came out. How that table took hold is still beyond me.

As you probably know, I’m with you on this. Although, otherwise, they are quality products.
 
dr dave
thanks for the info again

You’re welcome. I aim to swerve. 🤓

would you expect more drastic short results if you repeated the test in 6 months when the cloth is well worn?
since new cloth tends to make banks go long (i think)

Most definitely, especially on a humid day, and if the tables get a little dirty.
 
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FYI, I just posted a new video that shows how to test a table to determine if kicks and banks go short or long compared to typical pool tables. I also tests new 7’ and 9’ Blue Label Diamond brand tables with new cloth to see how they perform, and he shows how to make aiming adjustments when a table is banking short. Check it out:


Contents:
  • 0:00 - Intro
  • 0:53 - Background
  • 2:31 - 7’ Diamond Kicks
  • 4:01 - 9’ Diamond Kicks
  • 4:45 - 7’ Diamond Banks
  • 6:28 - 9’ Diamond Banks
  • 7:31 - Conclusions
Supporting Resources:
As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!

Well, "there is always one...", and today is my day to be the one. So, here goes:

Consider a perfect cushion: angle in = angle out. Because of the 3 11/16 inch setback of sights, the aim geometry of sighting through the diamonds differs from that which would result from aiming using the cushion nose or rail groove. Using the sights, I estimate the angle of incidence for the 7 foot table to be 11.8 degrees for the 20-10 kick, and 22.7 degrees for the 40-20 kick. For the 9-foot table, the incident angles would be 12.29 and 23.54 degrees respectively.

Using this, the impact points on the banking rail for the 7-foot table would be short by about 0.77 inches (20-10), 1.54 inches (40-20). For the 9-foot table: short by 0.8 inches (20-10) and 1.61(40-20). This is all attributable to the geometry of aiming through the diamonds, and correction would be required for any "perfect" table. These would be slightly larger for rail-groove impact.

The golf tee "correction" in your experiment sure looks close to the predicted 0.77 inches for a "perfect" table.

Assuming rail "pushback" is negligible, and given that the CB is rolling pretty slowly this is probably reasonable, is there any evidence that Diamond tables require any correction beyond that required by the (flawed) through the sights aiming?
 
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Simplified geometry like this doesn't work on a pool table in the real world (with complex physics).

That's why we have developed kicking and banking systems like the 2-to-1 rolling kick system and the twice-plus-tenths sliding bank system that work well on most tables. Slight adjustments to these systems are sometimes required based on conditions, but Diamond brand tables often require big adjustments.

D'oh! I forgot about complex physics. Let's see.......set up a shot with a known aiming flaw.....apply a correction that sure looks like it eliminates the flaw....apply a perfect stroke... ball goes in....hypothesis of short rebound is.....confirmed?!

With the data you provided, the mysterious multitude of complex physics forces must cancel, because the ball went in when placed on appropriate geometric course. Then the question becomes whether or not this is applicable over all incident angles (I doubt it is), and at what speeds (certainly will not be). At this time, that remains a mystery, but hopefully someone with a Diamond table will crank this out and compare it to a Gold Crown.
 
D'oh! I forgot about complex physics. Let's see.......set up a shot with a known aiming flaw.....apply a correction that sure looks like it eliminates the flaw....apply a perfect stroke... ball goes in....hypothesis of short rebound is.....confirmed?!

With the data you provided, the mysterious multitude of complex physics forces must cancel, because the ball went in when placed on appropriate geometric course. Then the question becomes whether or not this is applicable over all incident angles (I doubt it is), and at what speeds (certainly will not be). At this time, that remains a mystery, but hopefully someone with a Diamond table will crank this out and compare it to a Gold Crown.
Didn't you see where he shot the same shot on a bunch of other tables (that were all very similar results), and then when done on Diamond tables, the balls went noticeably shorter (more acute)?
 
all tables are a little different. hurts in one pocket. especially if they bank short as a hard shot sends it back to the opponents pocket instead of just away.

and the diamonds with worn cloth, react crazy sometimes when you hit cross table 3 or 4 rails. sometimes they reverse a lot on the 3rd rail or 4th and sometimes they just go straight.

sometimes they bounce on certain tables and all bets are off.

and with the tighter pockets speed control is more important, as diamonds shorten more than gold crowns on hard shots.

and hitting a little harder you are punished more if you hit short than long as it goes right for the opponents pocket or close, even with angle.

9 ball players don't have issues as much as most shots are, goes in or not.

do you guess i don't like diamonds for one pocket?
 
Oddly, I haven’t played on a Diamond that banks short yet. Wonder why.
Red label were screwy. I've had no trouble on a blue label. They bank fine IMO. People say they bank short, but I say they aim short. Now, I do think that the rails look quite a bit different visually and that could possibly lead to some thinking they bank short... IDK. I know the systems but I'm more of a feel player. On any table, if one goes what I would consider short, I just adjust. Unless we're talking an old Valley in a bar with 6 different rails, half loose and such, a player should be able to adapt quickly if not instantly. Sure, one errant shot may lose you the game but such is life.

If you have time to practice at all to get a feel for the table it shouldn't catch you by surprise. Recently our hall closed (going to re-open soon), so we've been around town playing. Some tables are so bad that you pretty much have to change your game. Maybe no rail shots at one table, maybe no draw on another and maybe no follow on a third table. At least Diamonds are pretty consistent. They can vary slightly, but that's literally every table ever made.
 
Red label were screwy. I've had no trouble on a blue label. They bank fine IMO. People say they bank short, but I say they aim short.

Good point. I good player needs to be able to adjust to any table conditions, but check out the video. Even the Blue Labels with brand new and slick cloth in a dry environment bank shorter than most other tables. The Red Label Diamonds were (and are, in many places) downright ridiculous, especially with broken-in and dirty cloth in a humid environment.
 
@dr_dave
advice please
i played onepocket today on a diamond
my home table is a gc1 with extended rails that tend to follow the 2:1 pretty well
many 3c systems close and the corner 5 i have to aim at 1.5 to go 3 rails to the corner
the diamond i played on
to 1 rail bank to the corner from 5 i had to aim at 2 with slow to medium stroke (object ball far from the rail)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
from 1 it was closer to 3
english seems to take more than expected
i really struggled trying to adjust
any suggestions on how to approach that table next time
i am playing in a onepocket tournament next week
thanks
 
Why do you have to add the tenths for the banks relative to kicks (e.g. 4 to 2 for kicks and 4.4 to 2 for banks)? Was this developed through practice or is there a "physics" explanation for it?
 
@dr_dave
advice please
i played onepocket today on a diamond
my home table is a gc1 with extended rails that tend to follow the 2:1 pretty well
many 3c systems close and the corner 5 i have to aim at 1.5 to go 3 rails to the corner
the diamond i played on
to 1 rail bank to the corner from 5 i had to aim at 2 with slow to medium stroke (object ball far from the rail)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
from 1 it was closer to 3
english seems to take more than expected
i really struggled trying to adjust
any suggestions on how to approach that table next time
i am playing in a onepocket tournament next week
thanks

It sounds to me like you already know “how to approach the table.” All you can do is know and continue to learn how the table plays and keep adjusting accordingly.
 
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those house balls are a fair bit smaller/lighter- 1 thru 9 anyway and the cue ball is even smaller than any of the other balls, than a regular set from being played so much and going down the gullies.
and its more humid than at home. and they all bank short with any speed.
 
Good point. I good player needs to be able to adjust to any table conditions, but check out the video. Even the Blue Labels with brand new and slick cloth in a dry environment bank shorter than most other tables. The Red Label Diamonds were (and are, in many places) downright ridiculous, especially with broken-in and dirty cloth in a humid environment.

There are many players who only play on Diamonds (Blue Labels). So to them the Diamonds bank correctly and the other tables bank long. This would be especially so for players who don’t use any system and bank by feel and experience.

I would be curious to hear if great bankers who grew up in the Diamond era (such as Fedor) think of adjusting to a Diamond banking short or just think of that as the default.
 
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