Now that is the funniest post I've seen this year.buddha162 said:Are you aware that China has had a free market/enterprise system for over 20 years now?
-Roger
LWW
Now that is the funniest post I've seen this year.buddha162 said:Are you aware that China has had a free market/enterprise system for over 20 years now?
-Roger
recoveryjones said:So far I've heard that Predator and Falcon now make their cues in China.I've also heard that Dufferin cues were bought out and now made in China.
Does anyone know of any other cues now made in China.Is the quality suffering?How much do these factories pay their labourers?
My first cue was a Dufferin Sneaky Pete and I also previously owned a Falcon with a Predator shaft.Not bad beginners cues,however, I'd really be reluctant to recommend them to anyone now.
RJ
Falconcuesltd said:Hello guys, this is Peter from Falcon Cues Ltd. I would just like to clear up some of the doubts and questions a lot of you might be having at the moment.
Falcon Cues is on the move to Taiwan, that is correct. We made this decision due to business related reasons I'm sure most of you would understand. Of course we are aware of quality issues and it will be one of our main focuses once the factory is set up. We will ensure the quality of Falcon Cues made in the new factory equal to or even better than those made in Canada. This will be our committment to our customers.
Also, to ensure good customer service, we are also setting up a warehousing facility in Mississauga, Ontario at the moment. This is to ensure that our customers still gets the same product support and services they are entitled to as a Falcon customer.
I hope this will help clear some of the issues or doubts that you may have, and if you have anymore questions, you can email me at peter@falconcues.com anytime.
Cheers
StrokeofLuck said:I can tell you from first hand losing business to China that the labor rates are not just lower they are way lower and so are the quality standards regardless of what Peter@Falcon Cues says. It's pretty difficult to police your quality when something is made in Asia. There are huge communication barriers and when something is made that inexpensively it's easy to settle for less and send your rejects/seconds back to be re-worked. Unfortunately because of these low labor rates it's the fastest growing industrial nation.
StrokeofLuck said:I can tell you from first hand losing business to China that the labor rates are not just lower they are way lower and so are the quality standards regardless of what Peter@Falcon Cues says. It's pretty difficult to police your quality when something is made in Asia. There are huge communication barriers and when something is made that inexpensively it's easy to settle for less and send your rejects/seconds back to be re-worked. Unfortunately because of these low labor rates it's the fastest growing industrial nation.
Cornerman said:While this may be true for many things, if a U.S.-based company uses an off-shore company to do their manufacturing, it is absolutely the U.S. company that is in charge of the quality. It cannot be blamed on China, for example, if the parent company isn't holding them to quality standards.
My company, we have had several companies in China for over a decade. In general, those companies have been our very best. The management and the laborers have shown pride in their work like we can never achieve. I don't know what other US companies are doing to not get this type of quality and committment.
How many of you actually do any kind of legitimate business with China???
Fred
acedotcom said:Uggh! No wonder the Falcon SP I bought 8 months ago was so shoddily made. If you run your finger over the edge of the inlays, you can feel the ridges.
I keep getting emails urging me to become a dealer of this Chinese company's cues - http://www.b2bsmartcue.com/cgi-bin/index.pl. I couldn't get them to send me one free sample. What do you think of their metal ferules?
LWW said:Now that is the funniest post I've seen this year.
LWW
Cornerman said:While this sbe true for many things, if a U.S.-based company uses an off-shore company to do their manufacturing, it is absolutely the U.S. company that is in charge of the quality. It cannot be blamed on China, for example, if the parent company isn't holding them to quality standards.
My company, we have had several companies in China for over a decade. In general, those companies have been our very best. The management and the laborers have shown pride in their work like we can never achieve. I don't know what other US companies are doing to not get this type of quality and committment.
How many of you actually do any kind of legitimate business with China???
Fred
Snapshot9 said:When a skilled worker in Detroit on the line is making $68 an hour (plus overtime and holiday pay)
jay helfert said:There are factories everywhere and more being built all over the place. I never saw so much new construction in my life.
QUOTE]
Let me second that. My source? I am in China right now. Over he last few weeks I have been to several cities in sourthern China and one trip up to Beijing. You have to see the amount of contstruction to believe it. Ride a train through southern China and look out the window. If you see less than 3 or 4 large cranes building a 20 or 30 story building it is unusual.
John Barton said:The ignorance that surrounds this subject is absolutely astounding. Please educate yourselves for a few minutes on how the world really works, how the world worked in the past and how it will continue to work until there is equilibrium between access to goods and services and pruchasing power.
1. Labor - Since the first traders people have brought goods bought at a low price to places where they could sell them at a higher price. With the advent of a consumer class this spread to manufacturing and the purchase of labor wherever the cost of such labor coupled with the transport and logistics costs made the most sense economically. The United States of America, known as the "Colonies" before that, was a good source of CHEAP labor for the British Empire and our country is built in great part on the backs of people who were working in conditions far worse than you can imagine for far less than you can imagine. In fact, America is still teeming with sweatshops that carry on the same deplorable practices now.
2. Fair Wages/Product Cost - The price of a product reflects many things of which the labor cost is one factor. Productivity is a factor, transport, overhead, tariffs, advertising and so on all play a part in price. But LABOR is the one that gets people fired up, because it's easy to tie labor prices to nationalism and incite people's ire. In China the labor rates are fair for the economy. The cost of living is much lower so the cost of labor is also much lower. The cost of labor in Podunk, Missouri is also less then cost of labor in New Your City. (no offense to those living in Podunk, where I am sure the general quality of life is better.) Do some companies charge outrageous prices compared to the cost of the labor? Sure they do, it's called "what the market will bear". Competition usually takes care of prices and quality ensuring better quality for less money. Competition also leads to higher labor costs as more skilled workers are able to command higher wages. A fair wage is a living wage. Many more folks in China who work in the manufacturing sector are making a living wage or better. A lot of Americans aren't making a living wage. So who is the oppressor here? And it's not "Buy Amercian" that solves this issue. It takes the PEOPLE to stand up and demand to be paid a wage that allows them some security. And it takes the people to stand up and tell the government to stop being fiscally irresponsible and wasting the excess money so that inflation doesn't eat up the wage increase. But that is another topic. Back to China.
3. Politics. China is in flux. It is a socialist state with capitalist practices. The Chinese experiment in Communism is only about 60 years old. This is in a country with 5000+ years of recorded history. China is virtually free today. Anyone can start a business, anyone can choose the career they wish to practice. Most Chinese can travel as they choose. Are there restrictions that run counter to the American idea of "freedom"? Most certainly. Would the country be better off with American style democracy and "freedom" as outlined in the Declaration of Indepence and the Bill of Rights? That is highly debatable. What is not up for debate however is that Chinese people as a whole are not being oppressed, they are not being tortured, they are for all practical purposes as free as any American and they are working on making their country better with a swiftness and efficiency that far outpaces "free" America. Lastly, yes, China has quashed demonstrations in horrid ways as in Tiannamen Square. Just as the United States Goverment, State Goverments on down to individual police officers, have all done the same to protestors and demonstrators throughout our country's history as well. We have many atrocities that the US has committed against it's own citizens as well as the citizens of other countries that is 100% counter to the human rights which are supposed to be protected under the constitution of the United States. So please don't use the red herring of communism/socialism vs. democracy to debate the issues of economy as relates to labor costs.
4. Quality. The relative quality of an item is directly related to it's price and expected lifespan. Can one reasonably expect a $20 Wal Mart cue to last ten years? How a $100 Lucasi? How about a $1000 Samsara? It is abolsutely possible to make a cue in China that has all the quality contained in a Samsara. Is it practical or economical to do so and is there demand? No. The quality of cues Made in China reflects what the market will bear in terms of the majority of people consuming those cues. The overall quality of the cues is on par with that of most American manufacturers because the distributers and the American consumer has demanded it and America has supplied the technical knowledge while China has supplied the labor and the infrastructure. Will there be some cues from some manufacturers that will exhibit flaws? Of course. Just as there are cues rolling off the line at the American maker's places that have flaws in them that get by everyone on the line. The fact of the matter is that import cues satisfy an economic demand that exists. And the quality has risen, due to competition and demand, to be the equal of and in some cases better than that of American cue manufacturers. Partly fueled by the self-same American cue manufacturers trading their knowledge for lower priced goods to remain competitive. And this gets all the way back to the beginning which is that we live on a ball and on a ball everything comes around.
So please, please educate yourselves before making comments about topics so that you are commenting from an informed stance rather than a purely emotional and subjective one. Understand that protectionism has never worked in the past and will ever work in the future for true growth and equilibirum in quality of life around the globe. If you truly care about the plight of the world, including the USA, then start living in a less wasteful manner and spread your purchases among those companies that are socially responsible as world citizens. Take some of your time to find out which companies those are and support them rather than blindly wrapping yourselve in the flag to be led around like docile sheep.
John Barton said:3. Politics. China is in flux. It is a socialist state with capitalist practices. The Chinese experiment in Communism is only about 60 years old. This is in a country with 5000+ years of recorded history. China is virtually free today. Anyone can start a business, anyone can choose the career they wish to practice. Most Chinese can travel as they choose. Are there restrictions that run counter to the American idea of "freedom"? Most certainly. Would the country be better off with American style democracy and "freedom" as outlined in the Declaration of Indepence and the Bill of Rights? That is highly debatable. What is not up for debate however is that Chinese people as a whole are not being oppressed, they are not being tortured, they are for all practical purposes as free as any American and they are working on making their country better with a swiftness and efficiency that far outpaces "free" America. Lastly, yes, China has quashed demonstrations in horrid ways as in Tiannamen Square. Just as the United States Goverment, State Goverments on down to individual police officers, have all done the same to protestors and demonstrators throughout our country's history as well. We have many atrocities that the US has committed against it's own citizens as well as the citizens of other countries that is 100% counter to the human rights which are supposed to be protected under the constitution of the United States. So please don't use the red herring of communism/socialism vs. democracy to debate the issues of economy as relates to labor costs.
John Barton said:The ignorance that surrounds this subject is absolutely astounding. Please educate yourselves for a few minutes on how the world really works, how the world worked in the past and how it will continue to work until there is equilibrium between access to goods and services and pruchasing power.
1. Labor - Since the first traders people have brought goods bought at a low price to places where they could sell them at a higher price. With the advent of a consumer class this spread to manufacturing and the purchase of labor wherever the cost of such labor coupled with the transport and logistics costs made the most sense economically. The United States of America, known as the "Colonies" before that, was a good source of CHEAP labor for the British Empire and our country is built in great part on the backs of people who were working in conditions far worse than you can imagine for far less than you can imagine. In fact, America is still teeming with sweatshops that carry on the same deplorable practices now.
2. Fair Wages/Product Cost - The price of a product reflects many things of which the labor cost is one factor. Productivity is a factor, transport, overhead, tariffs, advertising and so on all play a part in price. But LABOR is the one that gets people fired up, because it's easy to tie labor prices to nationalism and incite people's ire. In China the labor rates are fair for the economy. The cost of living is much lower so the cost of labor is also much lower. The cost of labor in Podunk, Missouri is also less then cost of labor in New Your City. (no offense to those living in Podunk, where I am sure the general quality of life is better.) Do some companies charge outrageous prices compared to the cost of the labor? Sure they do, it's called "what the market will bear". Competition usually takes care of prices and quality ensuring better quality for less money. Competition also leads to higher labor costs as more skilled workers are able to command higher wages. A fair wage is a living wage. Many more folks in China who work in the manufacturing sector are making a living wage or better. A lot of Americans aren't making a living wage. So who is the oppressor here? And it's not "Buy Amercian" that solves this issue. It takes the PEOPLE to stand up and demand to be paid a wage that allows them some security. And it takes the people to stand up and tell the government to stop being fiscally irresponsible and wasting the excess money so that inflation doesn't eat up the wage increase. But that is another topic. Back to China.
3. Politics. China is in flux. It is a socialist state with capitalist practices. The Chinese experiment in Communism is only about 60 years old. This is in a country with 5000+ years of recorded history. China is virtually free today. Anyone can start a business, anyone can choose the career they wish to practice. Most Chinese can travel as they choose. Are there restrictions that run counter to the American idea of "freedom"? Most certainly. Would the country be better off with American style democracy and "freedom" as outlined in the Declaration of Indepence and the Bill of Rights? That is highly debatable. What is not up for debate however is that Chinese people as a whole are not being oppressed, they are not being tortured, they are for all practical purposes as free as any American and they are working on making their country better with a swiftness and efficiency that far outpaces "free" America. Lastly, yes, China has quashed demonstrations in horrid ways as in Tiannamen Square. Just as the United States Goverment, State Goverments on down to individual police officers, have all done the same to protestors and demonstrators throughout our country's history as well. We have many atrocities that the US has committed against it's own citizens as well as the citizens of other countries that is 100% counter to the human rights which are supposed to be protected under the constitution of the United States. So please don't use the red herring of communism/socialism vs. democracy to debate the issues of economy as relates to labor costs.
4. Quality. The relative quality of an item is directly related to it's price and expected lifespan. Can one reasonably expect a $20 Wal Mart cue to last ten years? How a $100 Lucasi? How about a $1000 Samsara? It is abolsutely possible to make a cue in China that has all the quality contained in a Samsara. Is it practical or economical to do so and is there demand? No. The quality of cues Made in China reflects what the market will bear in terms of the majority of people consuming those cues. The overall quality of the cues is on par with that of most American manufacturers because the distributers and the American consumer has demanded it and America has supplied the technical knowledge while China has supplied the labor and the infrastructure. Will there be some cues from some manufacturers that will exhibit flaws? Of course. Just as there are cues rolling off the line at the American maker's places that have flaws in them that get by everyone on the line. The fact of the matter is that import cues satisfy an economic demand that exists. And the quality has risen, due to competition and demand, to be the equal of and in some cases better than that of American cue manufacturers. Partly fueled by the self-same American cue manufacturers trading their knowledge for lower priced goods to remain competitive. And this gets all the way back to the beginning which is that we live on a ball and on a ball everything comes around.
So please, please educate yourselves before making comments about topics so that you are commenting from an informed stance rather than a purely emotional and subjective one. Understand that protectionism has never worked in the past and will ever work in the future for true growth and equilibirum in quality of life around the globe. If you truly care about the plight of the world, including the USA, then start living in a less wasteful manner and spread your purchases among those companies that are socially responsible as world citizens. Take some of your time to find out which companies those are and support them rather than blindly wrapping yourselve in the flag to be led around like docile sheep.
jay helfert said:After reading this, I felt like I took a class in Economics 101. Thank you Professor Barton.
A couple of areas that I observe being vastly different in China are the Legal System and the Bureaucracy. For example, if you have a civil dispute with someone over a busines deal gone sour, good luck. Scams abound and it is "buyer beware" when you enter into a business relationship in China. I don't think there is even any such thing as a Civil Court. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is my observation.There are civil courts but the process is very cumbersome. It is however improving wth time.
And when it comes time to get necessary permits or licenses to operate a business, you may enter a rabbit warren of operatives. They may shuttle you from one office to another, paying various fees as you go. These offices have no prescribed hours of operation, and may be closed at any time for almost any reason. They may tell you to come back tomorrow after you have traveled for two hours to reach this office (it happened to us).True. Doing any kind of business here is a long process not suited to the hurry up style of most western business people. There is a saying about doing business in China - "Everything is possible, nothing is easy"
Heaven forbid, a government official doesn't like you for any reason. In their little fiefdom, they can make your life miserable. I personally witnessed this when my girlfriend was applying for a "Single Certificate". The "Official" in charge took one look at her, and belittled her for being single and never married at age 34. I could hear the contempt in his voice, even though I did not understand the language. He told her to wait outside and he "may" be able to help her before 5PM. This was at 1PM.
We sat and stewed for about 30 minutes, and I finally got up and peeked my head into his office. He was kicking back and having a gabfest with two of his buddies. They stopped talking and looked up at me. I said excuse me and ducked back out. I just wanted him to see the American that was with her. I didn't really know if it would do any good, or just piss him off. I knew I had NO power there. He came out 15 minutes later and brought all the paperwork she needed. Charged us over 500 Chinese dollars though (about $75). Jay - Foreigners get special treatment. Next time, be sure the government people see you in the beginning
Ok Professor, I'm ready for my second class.