Old
  (#31)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,494
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
08-24-2019, 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
I pivot to compensate for deflection and that's it. Although it is a part of how I aim, it isn't done simply to help me aim. I line up center cue ball dead red to the ghost ball spot. I've learned by rote the pivot I need for the specific amount of spin and speed I'm looking for. I simply apply the proper pivot and execute the stroke. In my brain I'm not actually changing my aiming point, it is still the ghost ball spot. The actual adjustments needed for squirt, swerve and throw are made subconsciously and naturally.
I think that describes the "backhand english" method of compensating for squirt/swerve.

Quote:
At the end of the day whatever system you use will only get you kind of close, the rest will have to be learned by experience.
Yup. Of course that doesn't mean aiming systems are useless, just that they're not supernatural. Some players prefer the illusion that their aiming system makes the subconscious part of aiming unnecessary for them.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#32)
erhino41
AzB Silver Member
erhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond repute
 
erhino41's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 701
vCash: 500
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maine
   
08-24-2019, 08:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think that describes the "backhand english" method of compensating for squirt/swerve.





Yup. Of course that doesn't mean aiming systems are useless, just that they're not supernatural. Some players prefer the illusion that their aiming system makes the subconscious part of aiming unnecessary for them.



pj

chgo
Back hand and front hand together. That way the bridge length does not have to match the pivot length.

If something gets a person closer to being able to do something then it is by definition useful. I will never tell anyone that whatever method is getting them to understand any of this is useless, so long as it is giving them actual useable results.

I do think there are a lot of players who are over thinking aiming in the hopes that by analysis alone their games will improve. I also think there are others who are gaining actual useable results by incorporating some of these types of systems into their thought process.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#33)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,494
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
08-24-2019, 08:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
Back hand and front hand together. That way the bridge length does not have to match the pivot length.
Right. I do the same, but I don't think of it as "pivoting", just adjusting my aim for squirt/swerve.

My question in this thread is about pivoting as a way to get on the centerball aim line without sidespin (although I'm happy to hear about other uses such as yours).

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#34)
erhino41
AzB Silver Member
erhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond reputeerhino41 has a reputation beyond repute
 
erhino41's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 701
vCash: 500
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maine
   
08-24-2019, 08:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Right. I do the same, but I don't think of it as "pivoting", just adjusting my aim for squirt/swerve.

My question in this thread is about pivoting as a way to get on the centerball aim line without sidespin (although I'm happy to hear about other uses such as yours).

pj
chgo
Everything in this game really boils down to perception, and we all perceive differently.

I offered up my reason for pivoting merely for posterity, not by any means to debunk any other reason for using a pivot.

I've dabbled a bit with some of these aiming systems, aligning centers and edges and pivots and fractions and so on, as a means to try and understand how different minds approach this game. I admit, and I think this is why a lot of the hamb guys can't relate to these systems of learning, is that I will always be biased by the way I learned. Any attempt will always fall back on using what I already know. That makes an actual scientific attempt to understand very difficult.



Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#35)
JoeyInCali
AzB Silver Member

JoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond repute
 
JoeyInCali's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 23,766
vCash: 4400
iTrader: 80 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: OC, California
   
08-24-2019, 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
Everything in this game really boils down to perception, and we all perceive differently.





Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
True.
You have to visualize the two balls colliding.
For cue ball control and pocketing .


  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#36)
BC21
Poolology

BC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond repute
 
BC21's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 3,242
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Virginia
   
08-26-2019, 07:42 AM

I came up with some interesting findings back when I was curious about how pivot systems function, like shishkabob, which a friend of mine uses very well. Here is a drawing that shows how using one point of reference on the ob (to get a line from ccb to this reference) and one exact pivot (half tip right of this reference line), produces different cut angles. Notice how most of the balls get cut toward the yellow circles. If the pocket were located at any of the yellow circles then most of these shots would hit the pocket. If not, then a different reference point in the ob would be needed.



Here's a video showing how it works on the table.

https://youtu.be/rilAhGzSH10


POOLOLOGY
YouTube
Brian Crist
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#37)
mista335
AzB Silver Member
mista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond reputemista335 has a reputation beyond repute
 
mista335's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 363
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney
   
08-27-2019, 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Are you a pivot aimer who has thought about how pivoting works for you? How exactly it helps you find the final aim more easily, quickly, accurately? If you have any insights or ideas about that I'd be interested to hear.
I pivot, therefore I am.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#38)
JB Cases
www.jbcases.com
JB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond repute
 
JB Cases's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 28,050
vCash: 5700
iTrader: 130 / 100%
Blog Entries: 11
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Earth
  Send a message via AIM to JB Cases Send a message via MSN to JB Cases Send a message via Yahoo to JB Cases Send a message via Skype™ to JB Cases 
11-06-2019, 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I came up with some interesting findings back when I was curious about how pivot systems function, like shishkabob, which a friend of mine uses very well. Here is a drawing that shows how using one point of reference on the ob (to get a line from ccb to this reference) and one exact pivot (half tip right of this reference line), produces different cut angles. Notice how most of the balls get cut toward the yellow circles. If the pocket were located at any of the yellow circles then most of these shots would hit the pocket. If not, then a different reference point in the ob would be needed.



Here's a video showing how it works on the table.

https://youtu.be/rilAhGzSH10
so basically math does govern the aiming systems that have a pivot as part of the steps.


Design Your Own Case. <---click here
The world's first and only online cue case designer brought to you by JB Cases. Try it.


jb@jbcases.com Skype: jbideas

Center To Edge Aiming Works. See it for yourself here.

Stan Shuffet's You Tube Channel. - CTE Demonstrations


"No such thing as a 1/2 ball hit....." - Duckie
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#39)
BC21
Poolology

BC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond repute
 
BC21's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 3,242
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Virginia
   
11-06-2019, 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Cases View Post
so basically math does govern the aiming systems that have a pivot as part of the steps.
Of course it does. This example shows where object balls track when the same pivot and reference point (where you pivot from) is used with every shot as the distance between cb and ob increase. I thought it was interesting.


POOLOLOGY
YouTube
Brian Crist
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#40)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,494
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
11-06-2019, 04:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Cases View Post
so basically math does govern the aiming systems that have a pivot as part of the steps.
Math doesn't "govern" pivot systems - it describes idealized versions of them, as it can with any aiming method.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#41)
BC21
Poolology

BC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond reputeBC21 has a reputation beyond repute
 
BC21's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 3,242
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Virginia
   
11-06-2019, 05:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Math doesn't "govern" pivot systems - it describes idealized versions of them, as it can with any aiming method.

pj
chgo
If the pivot is well-defined and consistent, like a "half tip offset" from center cb, and there's a known reference line through center cb from which the offset pivot is applied, then math can certainly predict where the ob will go for any given shot.

But anytime we attribute an effect (result) to some unknown cause (reason for result), we ignore logic and render math useless.


POOLOLOGY
YouTube
Brian Crist
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#42)
sixpack
AzB Silver Member

sixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond repute
 
sixpack's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,801
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: CA
   
11-06-2019, 07:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
If the pivot is well-defined and consistent, like a "half tip offset" from center cb, and there's a known reference line through center cb from which the offset pivot is applied, then math can certainly predict where the ob will go for any given shot.

But anytime we attribute an effect (result) to some unknown cause (reason for result), we ignore logic and render math useless.
The problem with people trying to draw it out on paper is they all assume a well-defined consistent pivot. In reality, especially for shishkabob, the pivot is based on a perception and the amount of the pivot varies depending on the perspective. And that perspective depends on a 3-d position.

I know that everybody now is going to claim that that makes it subjective, and it may, but not necessarily. Placing your eyes in a perception and pivoting to another perception can be very consistent but it does require judgement.

From my experimentation with pivot systems I believe that the changes in perceptions based on position are the glue that allows for larger pocketing ranges. Also in my own pivoting system hitting cue ball center is not a requirement and strict adherence to that makes the system less effective.

I really canít wait for Stan to release his truth series.


Splitting time between Chicago and San Francisco.

"If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it." - Mark Twain
__________________
Email:
Playing Cues: Ernie Martinez, Schon
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 3 of 3 123

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.