Do you realie that Aiming is Intuitive???? (Type 1)

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
no I just want the edge.



I didn't back out of your silly bet.

Why did you call me stupid? I think you do need a vacation :rolleyes:

Because you know stevie has no chance, I said you could pick the game? Same reason you won't play shane.

Who's crawfishing now?

You said you would bet in response to my description of the bet. Then you came back with Shane/Stevie. So you are the one who backed out and tried to come over the top with something not in the discussion.

Stevie has no chance? Obviously Stevie has SOME chance to beat any other living human. But since Stevie has NO chance in your eyes why don't you and I sponsor a TAR match between them and Shane gives Stevie some major weight. What sort of weight would bring it to "some chance"? How about the five out?

I mean since you know that Stevie has no chance then the five out shouldn't matter to Shane. But the fact is that you are a know-nothing nit who wouldn't bet that fish crap in the ocean.

So when you are ready to bet the conditions I described then step up. Until then crawfish back into your hole.
 

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My post really answers to that troll in the other forum, but this is a good spot to do some anecdotes about me. And I think I represent a good amount of players out there. And you're absolutely correct: there are a host of other reasons for amateurs to miss shots. But, that's what the other post topics are for!!!

I've been a top amateur player in my area in Massachusetts for two decades. I've played and won tournaments in other states (Illinois, CA) as well. The players I beat I think anyone here would consider pretty strong players. Maybe not pros (though I have beat a couple of pros in short races).

And yet, it was never because of strong shot making. Yes, I could pocket balls, but it wasn't my strength. And it's relative, isn't it? My bad day of pocketing balls could be a C players dream all-time-high. My strength was position play and table management, which is enough to beat a lot of amateurs. But, without a total package, you're always vulnerable. So, that means working on the break, working on safety play, banks, combos, and ... shot making of course.

But was I ball pocketing at Pro Level prior to aiming systems? Absolutely not. I was pocketing balls at "pretty damned good amateur" level. After embracing Hal Houle systems, I am an even better ball pocketing. Am I at Pro level? Absolutely not. But I am better. And don't we all just want to get better?

If you are a hundred ball runner, maybe aiming systems don't matter. But, if anyone is my level or worse (which I suspect is true for 95% of the posters), I just have a hard time believing that everyone else is such a good shot maker that they pooh pooh the discussions and leave it to "aiming properly is so easy."

It sounds like we have had similar experiences, and I think that, like you said, it is a pretty common scenario. You are the exact type of player that I was describing - the one that I think benefits most from aiming systems. You had your stroke pretty much grooved, were playing at a high level already, and got an additional bump from an aiming system. The same is true for me. Because we had developed reliable strokes by paying our dues and logging the hours on the table, we could actually realize the benefits of turning an 80% shot into a 90% shot, or a 95% shot into a 98% shot.

I certainly wouldn't advise novice players to ignore aiming discussions, but I would advise them to not emphasize it as much as we do here on the forum, and also not to fret over the "this is better than that" or "aiming systems are a hoax" crap we see so often in these threads. I just feel, perhaps incorrectly, that it doesn't matter all that much whether a novice player aims by feel or by Hal's or any other popular system. The major advancements they will make in the early stages will come with tuning their stroke, and, like you said, working on other critical aspects of the game, and those aspects just take a lot of time and hard work to master. Speed control, for example, is one of those critical things that seems to just come with time. I think it may be folly for a novice player to get all bungled up with 4 different aiming systems they don't quite understand when they don't yet have the repeatable stroke required to even know why they are missing, or which aiming method may work best for them. They would probably be better served shooting Bert Kinister's straight-in half-ball follow drill for a few months straight.

Nothing about this game is easy, for sure, but I think if a player's biggest problem is getting balls to drop, they are in a pretty good place overall. If they already possess an accurate and repeatable stroke, defensive prowess, and excellent cueball control, it should be relatively easy to find a solution for their aiming woes. Such was not the case for me. I quickly got to the point where I usually lost control of the table due to a poor break, poor position play, poorly executed safety, or swinging at a flier when I should have ducked - missing shots I was supposed to make accounted for a relatively small percentage of my errors. I also found that, as those other areas improved, my shotmaking picked up as well, undoubtedly because my stroke had improved. Some people may find themselves in the exact opposite situation, with most of their turnovers due to missing higher percentage shots, in which case researching aiming systems may very well be the most productive thing they could do.

Thanks for the best discussion about aiming I've had on this forum to date.

Aaron
 

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good post, Neil; I don't disagree with anything you said. It's never too early for someone to think about aiming, but I have run into some very confused people who had taken the wrong things from the barrage of information they're hit with out here - to the point where I felt they need to stop reading and just play pool, kind of like Thorsten said. But that's coming from someone who has a crooked stroke (me, not Thorsten), no PSR, chin far from touching the cue, zero hours of professional instruction, and who played their best pool years before they had given a thought to the "system" (or even "how", for that matter) of pretty much anything pool related. Mosconi's little red book and several thousand hours of table time... I guess you could call that the "brute force and ignorance" approach to getting good - perhaps I just expect everyone else to suffer the same way, LOL. :embarrassed2:

Edit: But an aiming system really did help me, though. It didn't allow me to reach a new level of shotmaking; I hit my pinnacle in that area about 15 years ago when I was playing 4+ hours/day 7 days a week (brute force!). How it helped me was after I had cut back my playing time to just a few hours a month; with the aiming system, I didn't have to be in stroke to make balls. I had reference points to use instead of relying fully on feel. I'm definitely a believer in them, but not any one specific one.

Aaron (returning to lurk mode)
 
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cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Golfers do not have an aiming formula. Quarterbacks do not. Bowlers do not. Archers do not. Marksmen do not. Kids on the playground do not. Baseball pitchers do not. Baseball hitters do not. Basketball players do not."

neither do pool players. some just dont realize it.

Jim Palmer did. He always said if he was aiming for the corner of the plate and the pitch was going over the center, he would start aiming for the center so it would go over the corner.
 

backplaying

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I suck at bowling, but when I was young and played a little bit, I would throw the ball and then point my thumb right at the target after release. It helped a lot. Golf, I'd point both thumbs straight down the shaft to get an accurate swing. So kinda aiming systems? :)[/QUOTE Sure some golfers look at a spot in front of them, but this is part of getting aligned right toward the target, and its not a aiming system. If thats where your thumbs were, I would guess you shot in the 90's right?
 

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
[Sure some golfers look at a spot in front of them, but this is part of getting aligned right toward the target, and its not a aiming system. If thats where your thumbs were, I would guess you shot in the 90's right?

What very little golfing I did was early 90s yep.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member

Um, that's me making myself look stupid...... I have been in the states for 6 weeks traveling around the midwest and it hasn't been a secret.

How I play doesn't change that you are a crawfish. You "might" be able to beat me but that doesn't matter because that's not what we were betting on.

But I will sure try you some. Do I just go to every pool room in America and ask for "Apocalyspe2012"???

Or are you someone we already know in another incarnation.
 

Apocalypse2017

Welcome to the resistance
Silver Member
Um, that's me making myself look stupid...... I have been in the states for 6 weeks traveling around the midwest and it hasn't been a secret.

How I play doesn't change that you are a crawfish. You "might" be able to beat me but that doesn't matter because that's not what we were betting on.

But I will sure try you some. Do I just go to every pool room in America and ask for "Apocalyspe2012"???

Or are you someone we already know in another incarnation.

Damn John...

You and I both know that your original bet would be very hard to make happen. I was just messing with you unless you really think it would be possible to set up.

You called me stupid, I'm not even against CTE so I don't know where that came from?

I doubt you will apologize, so I'm just gonna keep on keeping on, and you can do what you do best.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Damn John...

You and I both know that your original bet would be very hard to make happen. I was just messing with you unless you really think it would be possible to set up.

You called me stupid, I'm not even against CTE so I don't know where that came from?

I doubt you will apologize, so I'm just gonna keep on keeping on, and you can do what you do best.

Sorry. Overly sensitive on this topic.

I think all the bets I propose along these lines can be set up. But I also think that very few will ever undertake to do the experiments the right way.
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
When we aim in any sport, or any activity in life, it is system 1 that does the aiming.

If you don't know, system 1 is the intuitive portion of our brain. System 2 is the slower, computing, rational portion of our brain.

When we throw a football, we do not need to calculate how far away the receiver is. We do not need to compute the altitude that we must throw the ball at. This is all compute automatically by system 1. It is our intuition.

Trying to "block out" system 1 activities is extremely difficult. Why do you think people say it is difficult to miss a shot on purpose? System 1 is trying to pocket the ball which is automatic. System 2 is fighting against it when you are trying to miss on purpose.

Golfers do not have an aiming formula. Quarterbacks do not. Bowlers do not. Archers do not. Marksmen do not. Kids on the playground do not. Baseball pitchers do not. Baseball hitters do not. Basketball players do not.

Skill in accuracy can be gained from repeated trials, where feedback is received as to your success or failure. If feedback was hidden (if you were prevented from seeing if you pocketed the ball) you would not see improvement.

Your skill cannot be improved by instituting an aiming system. The only way to imrove is to train system 1 through repeated trials. System 1 learns slowly. System 2 learns quickly. System 2 can learn a formula instantly and begin using it in computations. System 1 learns slowly. It requires constant feedback and many trials in order to see a change.

You cannot institute an aiming system for a pitcher and make him all of a sudden throw strikes. But you can subject the pitcher to thousands of trials where he received instant feedback (ball or strike) and he will see improved accuracy.

There is more but the discussion will last weeks.

What is important is the mechanics. The mechanics of a pool stroke are not operated by System 1. It is not natural for you to execute a pool stroke. That is where instruction is beneficial.

The only important concept is to deliver the cue in a straight line at the point you intended to hit.

I repeat, I repeat, you cannot be taught how to aim. You can only improve your aim through repeated trials.

Your mechanics are important. Yes, the position of your head is important.

But you cannot be taught how to aim.

I am deeply concerned over all the threads with so much misinformation. It makes me very sick.

It takes a basic knowledge of psychology to understand system 1 and 2 decision making. I'm just done with it.

(I apologize for the missing letters, my keyboard is not in good condition)

This to me would be type 1 aiming in pool. :grin:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SyBCU1SrM8&feature=plcp&context=C45e1423VDvjVQa1PpcFNG8j9Tq3eE3dYGnOM4X78j3zb7dVgz1FY%3D
 
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