I was inspired by recent aim conversation here to do an article on why weaker players overcut balls severely and how to stop it and I welcome comments both positive and negative.
Thanks, all!
Thanks, all!
Overcutting Balls And Then Not
- Thread starter BilliardsAbout
- Start date
I will give you a negative comment. Couple of them. Your articles are long on words and short on diagrams. The reader gets lost. Of course words are what Google likes which is really what About.com likes. And you are a nasty person.
I read your article wherin you take great care to slam you colleagues by cliaming to have fixed a problem that a person had for 15 years when it wasn't solved by others. There is surely more to the story if this person really took all those lessons from all those instructors. Of course we don't get the rest of the story and likely never will.
Who has ever heard of you? If you are so good how come you don't show up anywhere but About.com? It's a shame that in this business anyone can call themselves an instructor.
But honestly, I wouldn't purchase a ten dollar bill from you for a dollar. I find your style incredibly offensive and I tend to attempt to get along with everyone.
And for the record overcutting is not the most common way to miss. Missing happens in both directions, sometimes on the same shot. Amateurs miss because they don't aim right, don't stroke right or some mixture of both. They don't just miss in one direction. Anyone who is missing in just one direction has a perception problem or a delivery problem or some of both.
I, for one, will likely never click on one of your links again.
What your article describes is exactly the way I have been aiming for most of my 50 years of playing. With one exception, when the cue ball center is outside of the object ball I do not use the QB edge. I use tip widths from the QB center line.
If I'm shooting a shot that requires right spin I line up the left side of the tip with the OB contact point. I will say that when the QB and OB are close together I do use the QB edge.
In other words I shoot thru the cue ball as though it is a ghost ball, like its not there and at the contact point on the OB with the tip of my cue.
I have watched many pros play and have watched their eyes, like Efren, he might look at the cue ball one time but he never takes his eyes off of the OB when in the shooting position.
Nice articles by the way, I get something out of each one.
Thanks
John
Hi, Roadie:
I appreciate your honesty and will respond to you sincerely and respectfully.
Illustrations work beautifully for readers to learn and for SEO also. It is more work for me; sometimes I do them. On my recent Aim Primer I made 15 illustrations on the PC. I can see where you'd might like another one or two on the recent article, so thanks for pointing that out. I have over 700 articles at About.com not including glossary terms, each and all of them have illustrations.
As for my other two-part article you are referring to, What Do Top Pool Teachers Really Teach?, you may have missed some of my disclaimers and cautions, such as this one:
It's hard to say that all the instructors I list below failed him [the student I've helped]. If it were one or two I might imagine such a possibility. Some teachers would say instead that their guess is Bill is a poor student.
And I'm reporting secondhand what he says these instructors told or taught him. It might be considered rather unfair to criticize someone's teaching methods from just one secondhand comment (although I do know some of these teachers and their methods from past experience).
You mentioned you hadn't encountered me until now. My signature at AZ Billiards on these posts lists some of my credentials.
I've worked in collaboration on projects with some pros, teaching pros, tournament referrees, product makers of stroke and aim improvement devices, and certified instructors from the major pool organizations. I'm not going to drop names but I am respected by some billiards leaders you probably know.
Perhaps you haven't heard of me because I currently only have one book and DVDs for sale. Most of my teaching is free of cost to About.com's readers. I do give lessons in person, too, of course, for pay and sometimes at little or no cost for certain players.
Your statement about overcutting vs. undercutting is interesting to me and is correct. But as I mentioned in the article, I am not making a statement about all pool players but about amateurs who plateau using basic concepts of ghost ball aim.
I'm thinking of the kind of players who after years miss what you or I would consider a basic cut shot by a diamond or two from the pocket. Playing to the corners, they much more frequently overcut shots than undercut them. This is in the article and it is fair to say that I have been clear about this fact in the article and about the specific type of misses I'm discussing.
Sir, anyone can author a book. I have had plenty of instructional books come across my desk written by people who have accomplished nothing of note in the pool world except having written a book. Writing a book or producing a DVD does not make you and expert. It make you an author.
If I wanted to I could write a book and make a dvd as well and be even more "credentialed" than you are. Inside Pool and other billiard publications are desperate for anyone who will submit halfway decent content to fill their pages. You are not on the instruction staff because you are a good instructor, you are there because you submit filler that is competent enough. Same thing for About.com. You were the person who got hired, not neccesarily the best person for the job but the one willing and able to write lots of content, which you do.
I haven't heard of you because you haven't won anything. In the world of competitive pool you are completely unknown. Most top instructors can lay some claim to decent results at some point in their lives. Either they were top amateurs, or they constantly finish in the top quarter of the field, or they were decent shortstops, or even low to mid-level pros. But you are nowhere to be found. Is this you? http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2012.php?playernum=9408
Well anyway it pains me to be negative about anyone, your article about other instructors rubbed me the wrong way and it seems that you really did not need to write it that way even if it's true. Which I suspect if the other instructors had been interviewed about their interaction with the student then the story might be different. Forgive me but I refuse to believe that you are so much better that you were able to correct something that EVERYONE else missed over a 15 year period.
You would do well to think about Darren Appleton. After he won the 10 Ball World Championship he went back to England to do some work with one of his coaches because his stroke had developed a hitch. The coach was able to fix it. Now one would think that right after wining a World Championship Darren wouldn't need to change anything. The lesson here is that people change, things happen, tics develop and by the time they get to you it's not neccesarily that they were not properly instructed but maybe that they had developed a habit so slowly that they didn't even notice when they first started doing it.
Even good players can have some bad habits that could do with some tweaking. Perhaps you should have taken the HIGH ROAD instead of jumping on the opportunity to slam your competition. Are you even a BCA certified instructor?
You really sound a lot like another guy who also produced DVDs, the Australian Oyster.....do a search on him on AZB and you will find out what this type of attitude results in here.
If I wanted to I could write a book and make a dvd as well and be even more "credentialed" than you are. Inside Pool and other billiard publications are desperate for anyone who will submit halfway decent content to fill their pages. You are not on the instruction staff because you are a good instructor, you are there because you submit filler that is competent enough. Same thing for About.com. You were the person who got hired, not neccesarily the best person for the job but the one willing and able to write lots of content, which you do.
I haven't heard of you because you haven't won anything. In the world of competitive pool you are completely unknown. Most top instructors can lay some claim to decent results at some point in their lives. Either they were top amateurs, or they constantly finish in the top quarter of the field, or they were decent shortstops, or even low to mid-level pros. But you are nowhere to be found. Is this you? http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2012.php?playernum=9408
Well anyway it pains me to be negative about anyone, your article about other instructors rubbed me the wrong way and it seems that you really did not need to write it that way even if it's true. Which I suspect if the other instructors had been interviewed about their interaction with the student then the story might be different. Forgive me but I refuse to believe that you are so much better that you were able to correct something that EVERYONE else missed over a 15 year period.
You would do well to think about Darren Appleton. After he won the 10 Ball World Championship he went back to England to do some work with one of his coaches because his stroke had developed a hitch. The coach was able to fix it. Now one would think that right after wining a World Championship Darren wouldn't need to change anything. The lesson here is that people change, things happen, tics develop and by the time they get to you it's not neccesarily that they were not properly instructed but maybe that they had developed a habit so slowly that they didn't even notice when they first started doing it.
Even good players can have some bad habits that could do with some tweaking. Perhaps you should have taken the HIGH ROAD instead of jumping on the opportunity to slam your competition. Are you even a BCA certified instructor?
You really sound a lot like another guy who also produced DVDs, the Australian Oyster.....do a search on him on AZB and you will find out what this type of attitude results in here.
Hi Roadie:
Picture Yourself Shooting Pool has positive reviews from certified instructors and playing pros.
From thousands of applicants, some are invited to enter About's competitive process and then one person is chosen for a GuideSite. And good magazines are not desperate for content as you wrote. Friends wait months for articles in billiards magazines as their instruction space is full most issues.
Would you rather learn basketball from Michael Jordan or from a great basketball coach? The playing skill of a teacher helps but communication skills may be more important. I can play, by the way; I'm not the other Matt Sherman in the player profile you linked. And your name is "Roadie" but you assume I can't be a good player unless I'm known from tournaments you've seen?
My student was about a shortstop in skill. Other teachers pushed a rebuilt stroke or stance to him (some of them had him working on a different stroke for months at a time during his 15-year odyssey) but he just needed some observation and assistance. You probably could have fixed his fault too.
I fixed it with fundamentals as I wrote in the article. It looks like you skimmed the first article and didn't read the second article.
I did take the high road by sharing from my convictions, and I hope you do the same. Truth spoken with respect is always the high road. But I did not give any names in the article nor do I consider them competition. I am friendly with some of them; the disclaimers I added are appropriate and teachers have not been offended at my comments.
I have considered certifying at BCA and did so again recently, but as I discussed with a member of BCA's Executive Board, I can speak freely at About.com as required, and not be accused of bias. I've further had students approach me for lessons because I am not certified and therefore untied to pushing another's teaching agenda.
I'm not saying this to offend you, Roadie, but have you noticed that you feel free to call me out as an instructor but you are offended that I am challenging the methods of other instructors? What would you call that sort of double standard if someone else used it on you?
Picture Yourself Shooting Pool has positive reviews from certified instructors and playing pros.
From thousands of applicants, some are invited to enter About's competitive process and then one person is chosen for a GuideSite. And good magazines are not desperate for content as you wrote. Friends wait months for articles in billiards magazines as their instruction space is full most issues.
Would you rather learn basketball from Michael Jordan or from a great basketball coach? The playing skill of a teacher helps but communication skills may be more important. I can play, by the way; I'm not the other Matt Sherman in the player profile you linked. And your name is "Roadie" but you assume I can't be a good player unless I'm known from tournaments you've seen?
My student was about a shortstop in skill. Other teachers pushed a rebuilt stroke or stance to him (some of them had him working on a different stroke for months at a time during his 15-year odyssey) but he just needed some observation and assistance. You probably could have fixed his fault too.
I fixed it with fundamentals as I wrote in the article. It looks like you skimmed the first article and didn't read the second article.
I did take the high road by sharing from my convictions, and I hope you do the same. Truth spoken with respect is always the high road. But I did not give any names in the article nor do I consider them competition. I am friendly with some of them; the disclaimers I added are appropriate and teachers have not been offended at my comments.
I have considered certifying at BCA and did so again recently, but as I discussed with a member of BCA's Executive Board, I can speak freely at About.com as required, and not be accused of bias. I've further had students approach me for lessons because I am not certified and therefore untied to pushing another's teaching agenda.
I'm not saying this to offend you, Roadie, but have you noticed that you feel free to call me out as an instructor but you are offended that I am challenging the methods of other instructors? What would you call that sort of double standard if someone else used it on you?
Hi mristea:
One shameless plug, one repeat from my earlier post. Then we can get back to the thread's contention of "Classic ghost ball aim, center ball cue ball through g.b. center ball, leads to overcuts"?
Shameless plug - Buy my DVD and watch be break, run, massé, shoot trick shots, and teach. It is edited video but most of the 150 techniques I present were done in one take.
Repeating what I've already said -
- Why would you judge my teaching ability solely on my playing ability? Why not ask me about my students or for video samples of my teaching? If I gave you a two-hour lesson, I might hit about six shots, because you're already a knowledgable player with skills. A pet peeve of mine is pros who charge $100 or more to have you watch them hit balls for an hour and then say, "Now imitate me." A lot of great players cannot communicate what they're doing by instinct, that is on 1,000 threads at AZ. (Fine exceptions include people like Buddy Hall. You will learn a lot from a weekend with him.)
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If it were a choice then I would rather learn from Michael Jordan's coach because he has results.
That is an excellent answer! I like it.
I have great student references I can give you ranging from beginners to pros. But I've never taught Michael Jordan to play pool, although he can play nicely.
I missed the thread referenced by the OP so I would like to ask a question - where is the source of the finding that beginners tend to over cut more shots? The reason I ask is this surprises me. I would think that beginners undercut more shots than not simply because they A) aim the cue stick at the contact point rather than the cue ball, resulting in a too full hit and/or, B) don't understand CIT, again missing too full.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Hi,
The article I just posted to start the thread goes into detail about all three of those things - I'm suggesting that players told "aim for ghost ball center" should be corrected to contact point/back of ball and not vice versa.
I've watched thousands of bad players miss shots - hey some poor guy's got to do it - and they overcut balls. Most AZ readers are stronger players who vary their missed shots.
That is an excellent answer! I like it.
I have great student references I can give you ranging from beginners to pros. But I've never taught Michael Jordan to play pool, although he can play nicely.
I will take the pro references. Please list the pros you have taught and their statements to that effect. This being a small sport we tend to have people on this forum who are personal friends with most of the pros. So go ahead and tell us who they are and we can verify your references.
Conventional wisdom is that beginners tend to undercut rather than overcut. But let's go ahead and assume the opposite is true, as you say you have found in your experience.
Why try to correct one problem (overcutting) by recommending an approach that, if performed properly, will still result in missing the ball (by undercutting)? Instead, why not diagnose the root cause(s) of the overcutting and recommend appropriate fixes that involve aiming properly?
Why try to correct one problem (overcutting) by recommending an approach that, if performed properly, will still result in missing the ball (by undercutting)? Instead, why not diagnose the root cause(s) of the overcutting and recommend appropriate fixes that involve aiming properly?
Actually Matt I did purchase your DVD a year or so ago and I was very dissapointed when seeing you shoot...I mean if that DVD was edited, I'm afraid to see how a video of you playing will look uncut...
To be honest at first I read your book, and the information was interesting, some classical pool instructional info but also some new things regarding the stance and stroke, grip hand and wrist detailed info, it looked nice...
Then I watched the DVD...and when seeing you play I immediately said to myself: no way I can try to learn information given by a person who doesn't look at all like a pool player...
I mean no offense you could not shoot a close distance straight in shot stop ball - you said this is how a stop shot should look like, then you shot the shot and bang, the cue ball kept rolling after contacting the object ball
I don't mean to say that an instructor should shoot pool like a pro - no way! But still an instructor should look like a pool player when playing pool, should shoot like a pool player, should prove the things he teaches in practice, at the pool table, you know what I mean...
I mean look at Stan Shuffett how he plays at his age...look at Ekkes, the SEE system guy, how he runs 7 consecutive racks of 9 ball on an uncut unedited video...when seeing this guys play you immediately respect them and listen to them, because they must know what they're talking about, right?
Sorry but I did not feel the same when seeing you shoot. It's just the way I feel and I'm honestly not trying to offend you in any way, but I was really interested to see you shoot some pool on some uncut video, maybe my first impression of you was wrong...
About,
I agree with Roadie, you are verbose and lost me a couple of times and illustrations would be helpful to keep the reader on track with what you are proffering - concept to concept.
The thought that if one aims at the GB with the center of the CB without english, he will undercut the shot. In reality, thanks to Dr. Dave and others, the OB is affected by CIT that pushes the OB forward a bit before it starts to roll in the intended direction. It is this forward movement that causes the OB to hit above the intended pocket/target.
This can be overcome with english:
- A bit ouf outside english
- Follow english
- draw english
If the shot requires that you hit the OB with stun in order to get shape, then you must intentionally over cut the shot or aim thin to compensatee for the undercutting described above. The amount of thin will vary depending on the desired cut angle, but with practice can be memorized and commited to a mental look up table for recall as the need arises.
Contact point (CP) on the OB to the contact point on the CB impact is geometrically sound but is given to error due to parallax if you are starting with the cue aimed at the center of CB and visualizing the CP to CP from the side of the cue. this will result in still indercutting the shot.
I use stick aiming with the cue aimed at the CP to CP line and parallel shift the cue back to the center of the CB, but it isn't that easy to effect a perfect parallel shift on a thin cut where the cue is far away from the center of the CB.
Sometimes I will stick aim while standing and holding the cue at arms length in back of the shot and angle the cue from my shoulder back to the center of the CB. I then lay the cue down on the table and drop into my stance and lift the cue up into my bridge and stroke.
This adds a small angle outward from the CP to CP line (resulting in a slight overcut aim line) and compensates for hitting the shot thin due to CIT. The described angle (away from parallel) is very slight. I find this, to me, to be more reliable than the parallel shift described above.
Be well.:smile:
I agree with Roadie, you are verbose and lost me a couple of times and illustrations would be helpful to keep the reader on track with what you are proffering - concept to concept.
The thought that if one aims at the GB with the center of the CB without english, he will undercut the shot. In reality, thanks to Dr. Dave and others, the OB is affected by CIT that pushes the OB forward a bit before it starts to roll in the intended direction. It is this forward movement that causes the OB to hit above the intended pocket/target.
This can be overcome with english:
- A bit ouf outside english
- Follow english
- draw english
If the shot requires that you hit the OB with stun in order to get shape, then you must intentionally over cut the shot or aim thin to compensatee for the undercutting described above. The amount of thin will vary depending on the desired cut angle, but with practice can be memorized and commited to a mental look up table for recall as the need arises.
Contact point (CP) on the OB to the contact point on the CB impact is geometrically sound but is given to error due to parallax if you are starting with the cue aimed at the center of CB and visualizing the CP to CP from the side of the cue. this will result in still indercutting the shot.
I use stick aiming with the cue aimed at the CP to CP line and parallel shift the cue back to the center of the CB, but it isn't that easy to effect a perfect parallel shift on a thin cut where the cue is far away from the center of the CB.
Sometimes I will stick aim while standing and holding the cue at arms length in back of the shot and angle the cue from my shoulder back to the center of the CB. I then lay the cue down on the table and drop into my stance and lift the cue up into my bridge and stroke.
This adds a small angle outward from the CP to CP line (resulting in a slight overcut aim line) and compensates for hitting the shot thin due to CIT. The described angle (away from parallel) is very slight. I find this, to me, to be more reliable than the parallel shift described above.
Be well.:smile:
Careful, Mitch. Matt wrote an article on About.com on why one *should* aim at the contact point -- and will argue with you about why you should try it before knocking it.
-Sean