2016 Arizona 8 ball Championship

tucson9ball

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
June of 2016 is the State Championships for Arizona players. I was just reading the guidelines and am not very happy. They are going to use the Fargo Ratings for a handicap....ok, at this point I was still good, but wait.

Here is the handicap they are using for teams and qualifications needed.

TEAMS:
Eligibility: Players must have 4 weeks of play in any BCAPL or USAPL
league between June 1, 2015 and May 31, 2016. Players may only be listed on
one team roster.
Format: Double elimination / Handicapped using Fargo Ratings
Mixed Teams (4-Player) – men & women
Begins Sat., June 11 @ 10am / $1,500 added based on 32 teams
Team Rating Limit: No team rated over 2200 may register.

Now this is supposed to be a State Championship, why the low limit of 2200?
Here are the current rating on my team:
Myself 668
George 640
Andy 667
Aaron 701(very low robustness)
Jack 564

Adding the lowest 4 is 2539, way over the max limit of 2200.
This is supposed to be a Championship of what? The only players that can get a team together are the lower rated players in our state. I'm hoping this issue gets addressed before next June and we can have a true Championship of the best players.
 
tucson9ball

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was just looking at the Wisconsin Championship coming up and it's using a similar system.

I guess my next question is: Are we using the Fargo Ratings for the 2016 BCAPL National Championship in Vegas?

If so, I will probably not be going!!!
 
cardiac kid

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Chris,

Heard that rumor over the weekend. Took me two years of financial pain to drop from the master's list to advanced. With the fargo ratings in place, I may not be able to play anyway. Hope they're going to post the information in a reasonable time frame. This does not bode well for the future of BCAPL pool IMHO. Thankfully, I'll be qualified for both ACS and VNEA.

Lyn
 
BryanB

BryanB

Huge Balls
Silver Member
tucson9ball said:
I was just looking at the Wisconsin Championship coming up and it's using a similar system.

I guess my next question is: Are we using the Fargo Ratings for the 2016 BCAPL National Championship in Vegas?

If so, I will probably not be going!!!
Click to expand...

The last CSI podcast was talking about the switch to FargoRate for the 2016 Nationals. Looks like they are using the low rating to stop from having stacked teams. Kinda like APA with the 23 limit. I the stronger players want to play they will have to form new teams.
 
tucson9ball

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
cardiac kid said:
Chris,

Heard that rumor over the weekend. Took me two years of financial pain to drop from the master's list to advanced. With the fargo ratings in place, I may not be able to play anyway. Hope they're going to post the information in a reasonable time frame. This does not bode well for the future of BCAPL pool IMHO. Thankfully, I'll be qualified for both ACS and VNEA.

Lyn
Click to expand...

I hope so too. Many players are not aware of this cap on ratings, they will be shocked. Also, our team normally could qualify for the Open, now I'm not sure we will be able to even play as a team. This change is making the BCAPL look more like the APA league, not ver happy right now.
 
cardiac kid

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Chris,

Of the eight players on the team I'm on, I'm the only one with a Fargo Rating. What is BCAPL going to do with that situation if we enter the Nationals? Should be interesting to say the least.

Got a laugh out of the level descriptions. 800 is a world champ. 700 is a grand master. OK they are professionals to all of us except the BCAPL. How else can a pro play in an amateur event? 600's can do well in the Open but not get to the final 32. Wonder how I got to 5/6 in 2012 ;) ? Must have been an error :thumbup: ! Actually it was my doppelganger :sorry: .

Like you, I'm a FR 660 plus. Guess I will not be able to play with my team. 2200 less 660 leaves 1540 among four players. Guessing all of them are in the mid to high 400 area. Going to be close! Guess they are trying to push more teams into the Advanced team event. Interesting comparison to APA / TAP. If you can't beat'em, join'em!

Lyn
 
mikepage

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
cardiac kid said:
[...] Guess I will not be able to play with my team. 2200 less 660 leaves 1540 among four players. Guessing all of them are in the mid to high 400 area. [...]
Lyn
Click to expand...

Lyn - That 2200 cap is for four-player teams, not five-player teams
 
M

Mark Griffin

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
2016 Arizona8ball championship

Chris & Lyn,

A small state or regional championship is a lot different than a national event. I assure you, we have given our course a LOT of thought - and we feel the long term gains far outweigh the short term pains.

The FargoRate system will allow (for the first time) - a true unbiased rating for every player. Yes there will be some lag time while players get enough games (robustness) to get an accurate rating. But look what systems are in place now!

I believe everyone will be pleasantly surprised with the results of these new systems. CSI will be having some more podcasts and can address these concerns - but please remember, BCAPL is an amateur organization. It is not fair for a 700 rated player to be in the 'open' division. There will be a place for everyone, but they will be competing among similar skill levels.

Pool needs a standard measurement of skill. FargoRate does that.

There is much more info coming. Our nationals are still 7 months away. Look to the future and what is best for the game.

Mark Griffin, CSI
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm an outsider to leagues, but have followed pool and the forums very closely for many years. One thing that has confused me to no end, is the naming convention of the BCAPL's different skill levels. I always thought the word "Open" meant the best of the best. But it seems that "Open" is actually a relatively low skill level?

From an outsider's perspective, the names are very confusing, and don't align with what the words mean (to me). I don't know if there is a better way to name things or not. If switching to Fargoratings, maybe rename all the classes as numbers? "Unlimited", "Below 700", "Below 600", "Below 500". etc.

*Pure speculation on my part, this may also have been the cause of the top Asian pro a few years ago competing in the wrong class and winning, and then being disqualified after the win. I forget his name, but you all know who I mean.*
 
mikepage

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
tucson9ball said:
[...]
Team Rating Limit: No team rated over 2200 may register.

Now this is supposed to be a State Championship, why the low limit of 2200?
Here are the current rating on my team:
Myself 668
George 640
Andy 667
Aaron 701(very low robustness)
Jack 564

Adding the lowest 4 is 2539, way over the max limit of 2200.
This is supposed to be a Championship of what? The only players that can get a team together are the lower rated players in our state. [...]
Click to expand...

Chris -- I ask you to consider a different perspective. First think of AZ--population 6M with about 1M in your area (Tuscon), a bigger population center around Phoenix, and everybody else scattered around.

The team you mention is basically a Tuscon-area all star team. George and you are numbers 1 and 3 on the Tuscon Leader Board at www.azhustlers.link, and Andy's just a few behind. I can imagine a Phoenix-east all star team and a Phoenix-west all star team and the three of you battling it out in epic fashion for AZ bragging rights... That sounds like fun.

But who are the other 40 teams? There are only so many players at your speed around--not many as a matter of fact. That means if you guys play together the other teams don't have players like you. A team from Flagstaff or Yuma--even if it is anchored by a player at your speed and has a handful of other committed players--never will have a chance to compete with the few all-star teams from the population centers.

Somebody mentioned the APA 23 rule. I'd like to draw a contrast. Yes the basic idea of a team skill ceiling is similar. Beyond that this is a very different situation. The 2200 cap for four-player teams means the average on the team can be as high as 550. This is an AZ 8 for average speed. This is a strong APA 6 for average speed. Yes the stronger players will have to be balanced by weaker players. But the average level can still be pretty high.

Our Advanced league in Fargo has a 4-player team limit of 2100. So instead of the old way around here (Two all star teams and everybody else battling for a distant third place), we have 10 teams in the mix and that can win in division that has 18-20 teams. There are different strategies for putting together a good team. You can try to get everybody between 500 and 550 and have similar skill levels across the team. Or you can spread it out. My team has me (629), Kurt(540), Dale or Rob(490 or 500), and Linda (420).

So yes it is a different way of thinking about team competition. Give it a chance. If you can make a handful of competitive teams from Tuscon and and give the smaller areas an opportunity to field a competitive team, the event can be a lot of fun for everybody. The team that wins just might be the team that got enough sleep, ate a good breakfast, and like and support one another....
 
tucson9ball

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mark Griffin said:
Chris & Lyn,

A small state or regional championship is a lot different than a national event. I assure you, we have given our course a LOT of thought - and we feel the long term gains far outweigh the short term pains.

The FargoRate system will allow (for the first time) - a true unbiased rating for every player. Yes there will be some lag time while players get enough games (robustness) to get an accurate rating. But look what systems are in place now!

I believe everyone will be pleasantly surprised with the results of these new systems. CSI will be having some more podcasts and can address these concerns - but please remember, BCAPL is an amateur organization. It is not fair for a 700 rated player to be in the 'open' division. There will be a place for everyone, but they will be competing among similar skill levels.

Pool needs a standard measurement of skill. FargoRate does that.

There is much more info coming. Our nationals are still 7 months away. Look to the future and what is best for the game.

Mark Griffin, CSI
Click to expand...

Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to address this question.
I do agree that the Fargo system is a good way to get people ranked nationally.

Let's step back in time a bit. About 12 years ago I started going to the BCAPL Nationals. Open Mixed teams could have 1 Master player and the rest were called Open players. There was no Advanced division at that time. Our Tucson team, which had different players, didn't get better than 64th. (Ok, 1 year we had Donnie Brown and I believe we got 9th/12th losing to team that had Glen Atwell on it)

The current ranking allow 1 Advanced player(Tucson has no Master players) on a Open Mixed team. I barely got to Advanced status after my finish in 2013, so I'm the Advanced player on our team.
Since the new system was put in place we still have not finished in the top 64.
Mike flatters my team saying we our "all stars", lol. We are merely big fish in a small pond.

My Fargo is 668 and the best finish I've ever had was 13th in Singles 8 ball Open division. Once I got to the top 64, each match was basically a coin toss, all those guys could shoot jam up. I highly doubt anybody with a Fargo of less than 550 has ever won or even got as high as 5/6th in the Open.

I sincerely hope you and whoever will be making this decision does a lot of homework on rankings and how they pair up to OPEN, ADVANCED, and MASTERS.
I realize this is a monumental task and have much respect for you and your staff.
The decisions you make this year could affect how many players the BCAPL gets in future years.
 
Banks

Banks

Banned
mikepage said:
Chris -- I ask you to consider a different perspective. First think of AZ--population 6M with about 1M in your area (Tuscon), a bigger population center around Phoenix, and everybody else scattered around.

The team you mention is basically a Tuscon-area all star team. George and you are numbers 1 and 3 on the Tuscon Leader Board at www.azhustlers.link, and Andy's just a few behind. I can imagine a Phoenix-east all star team and a Phoenix-west all star team and the three of you battling it out in epic fashion for AZ bragging rights... That sounds like fun.

But who are the other 40 teams? There are only so many players at your speed around--not many as a matter of fact. That means if you guys play together the other teams don't have players like you. A team from Flagstaff or Yuma--even if it is anchored by a player at your speed and has a handful of other committed players--never will have a chance to compete with the few all-star teams from the population centers.

Somebody mentioned the APA 23 rule. I'd like to draw a contrast. Yes the basic idea of a team skill ceiling is similar. Beyond that this is a very different situation. The 2200 cap for four-player teams means the average on the team can be as high as 550. This is an AZ 8 for average speed. This is a strong APA 6 for average speed. Yes the stronger players will have to be balanced by weaker players. But the average level can still be pretty high.

Our Advanced league in Fargo has a 4-player team limit of 2100. So instead of the old way around here (Two all star teams and everybody else battling for a distant third place), we have 10 teams in the mix and that can win in division that has 18-20 teams. There are different strategies for putting together a good team. You can try to get everybody between 500 and 550 and have similar skill levels across the team. Or you can spread it out. My team has me (629), Kurt(540), Dale or Rob(490 or 500), and Linda (420).

So yes it is a different way of thinking about team competition. Give it a chance. If you can make a handful of competitive teams from Tuscon and and give the smaller areas an opportunity to field a competitive team, the event can be a lot of fun for everybody. The team that wins just might be the team that got enough sleep, ate a good breakfast, and like and support one another....
Click to expand...

As much as i like the rating system, the limitation on team points is exactly what many feel the bca wasn't. Your reason and justification above is the apa motto.. everyone can play, anyone can win. Mix that with how our regional guidelines are moving and it appears that the bca is just becoming a slightly higher skilled apa. If i want the apa, ill play apa.. which i already do.
 
mikepage

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Banks said:
As much as i like the rating system, the limitation on team points is exactly what many feel the bca wasn't.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why you say that. BCAPL has long been that an Open-Division team could have no Master players and at most one Advanced player. The rest have to be classified as Open. That is more or less just a cruder version of team limits.

Your reason and justification above is the apa motto.. everyone can play, anyone can win. [...]
Click to expand...

I over state that. The vast majority of teams are well under the limit. What this does is flatten it out at the top so you don't have a few teams with skill that is MUCH MUCH higher than the average. Again, the idea of capping the team skill has been there all along.

I played on a team that got 9-12 amongst Open Teams (600 teams or something like that) two years ago. Our ratings were 637, 629 (me), 607, 600, and 554--so an average of around 600.
 
M

Mark Griffin

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
We will be releasing a lot more info in regards to FargoRate and how it will affect our state and national events.

The goal is to have players competing against a group of players that are similarly capable. It is nor fair to have a 700+ playing in an open singles event (there are a little over a 100 players in the country that are over 700). But a team can have a heavyweight player if they choose, but the others might have to be a little lower rated - that will depend on the category they want to play in.

There will still be different divisions. All FargoRate does is to better quantify how a player really plays. It is not even close to APA. Their system is not very transparent and can be easily manipulated. I think you'll find this is a very accurate system-and much more transparent. It is based on historical data - it is not subjective FargoRate will finally put to rest the age old question: who is a professional player?

Most leagues have always separated players skill levels by which divisions they can play in. Nothing has changed - just a better method of tracking a players speed. There will be opportunities for 'all-star teams' - but they will be competing against other teams of equal ability.

It is very hard to address these issues in threads like this, so if you have any input, please send it to us.

Markg@playcsipool.com
Mark Griffin
 
robsnotes4u

robsnotes4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am Rob on Mike's team, and I can say this with the utmost confidence.

I have been around Fargo Ratings for around 5 years. In this time, I have had many discussions with Mike. That doesn't mean I fully understand the math, yet I have watched Fargo Rate work. I can not think of a more sound way to to give a rating. Use it for awhile, and you will be amazed at the accuracy.

Mark and Ozzy, like Mike and Steve, just didn't give this the once over and say lets go with it. It wasn't an over night decision. The amount of data that has been accumulated is amazing and continually grows.

Use it, compare it, then understand it. If you don't understand it ask question. Mike and Steve have the ability to talk about it on any level.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
robsnotes4u said:
I am Rob on Mike's team, and I can say this with the utmost confidence.

I have been around Fargo Ratings for around 5 years. In this time, I have had many discussions with Mike. That doesn't mean I fully understand the math, yet I have watched Fargo Rate work. I can not think of a more sound way to to give a rating. Use it for awhile, and you will be amazed at the accuracy.

Mark and Ozzy, like Mike and Steve, just didn't give this the once over and say lets go with it. It wasn't an over night decision. The amount of data that has been accumulated is amazing and continually grows.

Use it, compare it, then understand it. If you don't understand it ask question. Mike and Steve have the ability to talk about it on any level.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Unless I missed something....no one is questioning the Fargo ratings.

They are just complaining about the team handicap limits
 
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